maybe the other memorials need updating, something like "unarmoured civialians non combatants murdered by German U boats..." Kev; At risk of Tmm and myself starting to sound like a double act here ..... I feel the distinction lies within the context of Acts of War, during time of war. And premeditated, peace time Governmental behaviour. I'm thinking along the lines of Yalta. The Gurkha's. Now this. Makes me wonder. That's all.
Kev; At risk of Tmm and myself starting to sound like a double act here ..... I feel the distinction lies within the context of Acts of War, during time of war. And premeditated, peace time Governmental behaviour. I'm thinking along the lines of Yalta. The Gurkha's. Now this. Makes me wonder. That's all. Steve, Its a military memorial, surrounded my other military memorials.... Maybe its the siteing not the wording... Kev
To my way of thinking; there often feels like a tinge of bitterness on Merchant Navy memorials. I don't know if it's my own slim knowledge of some of the treatment of these men affecting my perceptions, or more overt than that, but they rightly often seem to feel hard-used by posterity?
Its a military memorial, surrounded my other military memorials.... Maybe its the siteing not the wording... Touche! Extremely well spotted and said, mate. Yeppers. Now ye've pointed that out, I agree wholeheartedly. It does smack of civilians muscling in on 'military space'. I'll offer no further 'examples' to illustrate my own new line of perspective now ~ such could all too easily become misconstrued as bordering on a hint of some vague disrespect, I feel. But, yes; I see ye point. Probably not the exact best place to put it, is it? Well done
To my way of thinking; there often feels like a tinge of bitterness on Merchant Navy memorials. I don't know if it's my own slim knowledge of some of the treatment of these men affecting my perceptions, or more overt than that, but they rightly often seem to feel hard-used by posterity? Adam, Steve, Yes its a strange situation.. I'm not saying its right or wrong (and I'm definetly not saying there isnt an injustice here that doesn't need reconignition) , its just caught be off balance a bit. Just interested in what everyone thinks. Kev
Touche! Extremely well spotted and said, mate. Yeppers. Now ye've pointed that out, I agree wholeheartedly. It does smack of civilians muscling in on 'military space'. Well done Very surprised and saddened by your post above. These civilians as you put it were every bit a part of the war effort as any other members of the armed services. Look at the statistics for Merchant Navy war dead to see my point. Maybe there is a feeling of resentment by some including myself who try and ensure that the Merchant Navy's name is not forgotten but that resentment runs deep when you think of the sacrifices made and the lack of recognition by governments. I quote from my website: "The merchant seaman never faltered. To him we owe our preservation and our very lives". The Right Honourable Alfred Barnes, Minister of War Transport - July 1945. If you want examples of this I will be only to glad to give you some. Regarding this memorial, I think it points out an injustice done to foreign merchant seamen who also served and to whom we all as the quote states: "owe our preservation and our very lives". We used these people then we dumped them. Please don't show your ignorance of civilians muscling in on military space they were good enough in 1939 -1945 so in my book they are good enough now. I am sorry if this post upsets some but I will not apologise for remembering the sacrifices of these men and women. We would have lost the war had it not been for the Merchant Service do any of you disagree with me? Regards Hugh
Sorry, Hugh. I believe ye misconstrued my meaning there. My comment was in no way aimed at the Merchant Seamen themselves ~ I had quite enough relatives in that service myself. I'm not completely ignorant of their historical service. My point was that these present day civilians, their sixty something year old children, may be seen as veering a bit 'off topic' by airing their grievance with Post War Government actions amidst a War Memorial proper. Can ye not see how a Moderator, on this very site, might choose to move a post about such a point from 'The War At Sea' to the 'Post War' board? What that memorial refers to is a Post War event. Start down that road and where might we end up?
A classic example of the dangers of internet forums here. A misunderstanding which looks (I hope) to have been clarified. I would think that most of us landlubbers see little distinction between Royal and Merchant Navies in times of war. Brave men all of them. Further to Steve's final question :- "What that memorial refers to is a Post War event. Start down that road and where might we end up? " ...We might end up with all Liverpudlians who have never known their fathers demanding a stone plaque - Going to need a pretty long wall for that one
I doubt its a translation error. it seems to run too smoothly in its context. if it was a simple error it would be more simplified than required. I think this was a political statement somewhere along the line. you would have to find out who had it made and who paid for it to find the context. some one sticking the boot in with their own agenda I feel. I am not saying they might have a point but it shouldn't be made on the backs of the now silent
Steve, it's easy to misunderstand on forums I appreciate that and I accept you are not ignorant of the history of the Merchant Navy please accept my apologies. Maybe I am out on my own but it's in remembrance of seamen who served and died in the British Merchant Navy and also in remembrance of the way they were mis-treated by our government of the day. They have chosen to remember the sacrifices and the injustice. I wonder how many on this forum can say that they knew of this injustice before this was originally posted? That said, I can see how some members would prefer that the memorial should only remember the sacrifice and not the injustice of 1945. Rich, Could a memorial be placed in Beijing reminding them that if it wasn't for the sacrifices of the British Merchant Marine, they 'd all be speaking Japanese? I am sure there wouldn't but these men were part of the British Merchant Marine and it was their sacrifice too. Regards Hugh
I don't think you're out on your own Hugh, I can appreciate how bitterness could creep into a memorial, these emotions are at the stronger end of the normal human spectrum and will inevitably sometimes boil out and be carved into stone. I was wondering if there are any Polish memorials in the UK where the wording specifically hints at the postwar feeling of betrayal many of them experienced?
Hah! Finally managed to claw my way back in here No worries, Hugh. I think Kev's was a terrific initial post and has probably taught most of us something we never knew about before. Then it generated some deep thoughts all round and a good bit of opinion. Just what I like about this place. The provocation of thoughts and the sharing of them among friends.
Hah! Finally managed to claw my way back in here No worries, Hugh. I think Kev's was a terrific initial post and has probably taught most of us something we never knew about before. Then it generated some deep thoughts all round and a good bit of opinion. Just what I like about this place. The provocation of thoughts and the sharing of them among friends. Ah rumbled me.... I didnt know much about it either and I knew as soon as I saw it that it would spark discussion... Kev
