A Xanten Crash

That's pretty cool - well done! I'm still looking around Furstenberg ...

Regards

 

Ho,

A translation from the German Wikipedia page for Haus Fürstenberg (Xanten):

"In the spring of 1945, the mansion's tower platform served as a vantage point for British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and British Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery to observe Operation Plunder and Operation Varsity, respectively, in World War II."

That may be the case but I have yet to run across footage of either of them on a tower platform. Perhaps the crop below is the tower referred to or is it something different? Also a nice litho of the Haus from days of yore.



Here are a few combines of Churchill and Alanbrooke at their observation spot during the Varsity flyover. They are next to what appears to be an ascending road - perhaps Rhienberger Str. ... ?



With curious servicemen at same location.



Regards ...

 

I can only agree with that. I read elsewhere that Churchill watched the flyover from a hill in Ginderich. Ginderich is about 1 km from the Rhine, and it's as flat as a tabletop. Surely the work of some scribbler, they always like to confuse Market Garden and Varsity.

 

Last map for the moment. It shows the same spot as my previous chart, but as aerial from 1951.

cu.

 

Yo,

Nice find! It is interesting to see that the field beyond where the front fuselage came to rest was still existent in the early 50s and not completely built over with new housing. Here is a slightly better marked combine of the tail photo and Xanten aerial location as I see it. Not everyone agrees. If I remember correctly the aerial was taken a day or two before the crash. 'X' and 'F' locations are approximations which is a fancy way of saying they could be a bit off ...



Regards ...

 

What was the direction of flight in your opinion?

 

Questions for the moment from my side:

(1) A single downwards C-47 ?, shown much nearer than other aircraft?
(3) (4) A single C-46 ? coming from east, and another aircraft going rapidly downwards?
(2) (5) Is this the same smoke plume?

cu.

 

Yo,

Very good. In my opinion and off the top of my head:

1 - a C-47
2 - Not sure of the smoke plume source in the British Pathe film - possibly the C-46 crash ...?
3 - Our C-46? - by Gloster, but would like to see it in better quality.
4 - Final descent of C-46 towards Xanten crash site - a Gloster photo.
5 - C-46 post crash explosion, burn-up at Xanten - Gloster.

Regards ...

 

Combines

Here are a couple of unused Pathe combinations made as potential PDF additions (messing around ... ). Basically the same things caught my attention.



Regards ...

 

Descent/Post Crash Compare

The Canadian album photos, unfortunately, are not always of good resolution. I think I posted this comparison previously (and in PDF) of the "final descent" footage and a crop of a post crash Gloster photo showing it is the same Xanten location as the same building is seen in both. This was before we were aware of your find of the Gloster descent photos.

Of course both footage and photos were shot from the Furstenberg observation post. Note the smoke trailing from the port wing which is similar to what Pilot Bryant witnessed of the CN 45 crash.



Regards ...

Later - I should add the original source for the descent into Xanten footage was Cdn. Army Newsreel No. 67, but the still frames used in compare above were taken from an American newsreel of exact same clip in slightly better quality.

My impression, which may not be entirely accurate, is that the Canadian Army only used footage captured by their own cameramen in the creation of their newsreels.

 

A good observation Cee, I can fully confirm that. When I created my website ndrh1945, I was surprised that the Canadian newsreels showed completely different material that I had never seen anywhere before.

We will certainly discover more finds at some point. In my experience, something like this always happens when you're not looking for it (this is the motto of the day).

cu.

 

Yo,

I'm being a bit cautious as your album photos show a few Americans in amongst the observers on the "perch" that day. It would be interesting to know if Lt. Gloster was teamed up with a cinematographer at the time.

Also the cameramen in the Churchill party being at ground level would not have had unobstructed views.

Regards ...

 

Otherwise he would have missed his job!

Watched the Pathe/Churchill clip over and over again, to pinpoint the hill. But first some general observations. The clip seems to be a wild mishmash of several snippets. For example, from the Xanten area it wouldn't be possible to view the north route with Hamilcar tows (at least not that close).



Also the overflights and the size of aircraft shown, make me wonder (compared to the Gloster pix and inbound routes).

Xanten Inbound routes

My preliminary estimate: Churchill wasn't that close to the Xanten vicinity. For security reasons Monty placed him a little bit more in the hinterland. Already having a spot in mind. Proposal: in order not to bloat the crash discussion, I will open a new thread about Mr. Churchill's little trip to Germany 23rd to 26th of March. Several places are found in literature, also lots of stills & clips.

cu.

 

Yo,

Without knowing the Churchill party's exact location the filmed scenes could be, as you suggest, a distraction and perhaps only peripherally connected to subject of this thread. They do appear to be on a hill or elevated location. My impression is their primary view direction is eastward as the aircraft cross the Rhine into Germany.

Regards ...

 

TR 2837 (IWM)

Another March 24th photo shot at Kevelaer. A zoom in on the aircraft reveals double towed Waco gliders. The cupola seen here doesn't strike me as being one of those seen in the original considered previously.



Internet information found on Churchill's itinerary during this period covers only his movements on March 25th. His party began that day attending a church service at Walbeck, Germany. Walbeck is south of both Kevelaer and Xanten.



"On 25 March, ... Churchill first attended a church service that morning at the English headquarters in Walbeck, a village on the west side of the Lower Rhine. ..."



But where did Churchill and Sir Alan Brooke go on March 24th to view the passage of Op Varsity Airborne aircraft which included Stirlings and Horsas from the British stream as seen in clips from the British Pathe film? Or were some of these aircraft clips shot separately at another location?



Perhaps ometei will have better luck discovering more on their movements.

Regards ...

 

According the Churchill society:

On 24 March, the Allies started crossing the Rhine under a barrage of two thousand guns. Churchill, never one to miss out on the action, watched the momentous crossing with General Bernard Montgomery – and even had a picnic lunch on the banks of the river. He and Montgomery then crossed the Rhine into enemy territory. They later went to the railway bridge at Wesel, in sunshine, when they came under enemy fire, with shells falling only a few hundred yards away, into the river, and sending up great jets of water. This adventurous expedition was later criticised by Eisenhower – who felt it was far too daring – saying that if he’d been there, he’d never have allowed Churchill to cross the river when it was still so dangerous.

Six weeks later, Montgomery received the unconditional surrender of German forces.

And

Being in the area helps one to understand what barriers rivers and canals can be. The number and width of the waterways would deter anyone. Of course, the Rhine was the one river every ally wanted to cross and we visited the area where Churchill himself crossed over on two consecutive days, to visit the Americans and British respectively on 24 and 25 March 1945.

But where ? was the picnic location

This photograph from IWM is dated 26 March 1945, so a different picnic.

WINSTON CHURCHILL AS PRIME MINISTER 1940-1945
Sgt Midgley 26 March 1945

 

Thanks Bedee,

It seems the exact dates and locations for Churchill's movements have been mixed up in some of these accounts. I'm primarily interested in knowing where he witnessed the aerial invasion on the 24th. More out of curiosity as it doesn't change much for me what occurred with the Xanten crash.

Regards

 

It's time to bring a breath of fresh air into this thread, this clip will hopefully do so.

National Archives - AIRBORNE CROSSING OF THE RHINE

This clip starts with the usual, well-known scenes. However, it contains some very interesting sequences. #1 shows very detailed air-to-ground shots. A crash with a lot of smoke is clearly visible. The firing anti-aircraft emplacements on the right edge can also be clearly seen. Anyone who has the opportunity to watch this clip frame-by-frame, will discover further firing positions.

#2 and #3 show the shots already known from the Gloster pictures. #4 seems to show a different spot, there are lots of parachutes to be seen. If the dark band is a river, the location should be to determine, a farm is in the immediate vicinity.

Is it once again, a mishmash of different snippets or really one sequence?

 

Yo,

A very good US Varsity newsreel. Your selection I see as a mishmash. Some of those clips we have dealt with elsewhere. It was nice, however, to get a full view of one of CN 45's crew members - perhaps Rhoads ...?



Regards ..

 

Hi,

Here are a few of my thoughts on one of the clips - pages taken from the Xanten Crash PDF.



Regards ...