A Veteran of the Italian Campaign?

Quite a while ago I posted this thread and knew that it would take the receipt of the Service Records to clarify things...

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/searching-someone-military-genealogy/28356-search-signaller-updated-clue.html

Well today the service records were delivered. We now know Richard Hesp served in Norway in 1940. It's from 1943 onwards that everything gets abbreviated. Any help on deciphering the following would be very much appreciated.

Cheers

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Apologies if the below is stating the b......g obvious.

Clearly the records hide as much detail as they show. The first summary page doesn't refer to CMF (ie Italy) at all but it's pretty clear that Cpl Hesp served with 46th Dvision signals there from 1943 to 1945, and he was, of course, awarded the Italian Star.

In my father's case he was in Sicily from July to Sept 1943, and then in Italy from Sept 1943 to July 1944, but the first mention of CMF on his records are from Nov 1944, so I assume that the war office record keeping didn't keep up with the organisational terminology of the campaign.

Clearly, the best way is (if possible) to read the WO records alongside a divisional history, and then cross reference with any personal stories told by the individual.

A few comments on the details on the papers:

Embarking for North Africa on 7th Jan 1943 exactly fits with 46th Division movements and they arrived in Africa on about 17th Jan 1943, where they took part in the final battles in Tunisia.

As stated previously the 46th Division took part in several battles in Italy including Salerno, the Volturno river crossing and Camino in the latter part of 1943. Their planned crossing of the Garigliano River in Jan 1944 was aborted.

SOS (Struck off Strength) BNAF 16th March 1944 again fits with the 46th Division's withdrawal from Italy and then TOS (Taken on Stength) MEF i.e. Palestine/Egypt for rest and training before embarking back to Italy TOS (Taken on Strength) BNAF on 27th June 1944, arriving 3rd July 1944. fighting at the Gothic Line and beyond until being transferred in early 1945 to Greece and thence ended their war in Austria in May 1945.

In summary, it's fair to assume that Cpl Hesp was with the 46th Division throughout before going home in Oct 1945, and gaining ultimate discharge in Jan 1946 after 10 1/2 years of total service.

Richard

 

Johnathan

Richard has it about right with his movements from the UK - BNAF - CMF - MEF - CMF - Austria and uk

one little item which gets my back up and I have corrected umpteen times is the MEF was ALWAYS known as MIDDLE EAST FORCE- where this Mediteranian Expeditionery Force come from no one seems to know but like sheep they keep following that false trail - another fact which can confuse is the CMF for Central Mediterranian Force which had a chequered history as can be seen in the following nonsense
When 8th Army joined with 1st Army in Tunisia - the combined force was known as
the 18th Army group (1+8) rocket science stuff

When 8the Army joined with US 7th Army - it became 15th Army group- (same scientists)

When 8th Army joined 5th US Army it became 13th Army Group - OMG - can't have that so back to CMF - then finished up as AAI - Alied Armies in Italy

Cheers

 

Richard and Tom

Thanks very much for the information. I've forwarded a link to this page to both Richard's Daughter and Grandson and I know they will be very interested in the details you have provided and will be very grateful for the assistance.

Cheers

Jonathan

 

Forces Post Office:





Middle East Forces

 

Thanks for the link to ABE for the 46 Div History Owen.

Just out of interest would anyone be able to explain the organisation and set up of a Division's Signals units?

 

Richard.

You mention that 46 BR Inf Div's 'planned crossing of the Garigliano River in Jan 1944 was aborted'. Strictly speaking it was not. 46 BR Inf Div was committed against Sant Ambroglio on the night of 19-20 Jan 44 with the intention of securing the II (US) Corps left flank prior to 36 US Inf Div's own attack across the Rapido just downstream of Cassino. San Ambroglio sits on a ridge above the river and had good observation of the 36 US Inf Div crossing points.

Maj Gen Hawksworth, GOC 46 BR Inf Div had only committed a single Brigade before he aborted the remainder of the attack when he realised that the task was futile.

Hawksworth was so concerned about the failure of his attack that he visited HQ 36 US Inf Div to apologise personally to Maj Gen Walker.

FdeP

 

Frank,

Yes, indeed and thanks for this.

I note part of Maj-Gen Walker's diary entry when Hawkesworth came to apologise.

"...The British are the world's greatest diplomats.."


Richard

 

46 Division went to France in 1940.

Ref a Div Sigs Regt:

It consisted of a HQ, HQ Company, Q and M Sections and 4 Companies.

A Infantry Divisional Signals Regiment covered the following tasks-Division R/T net, W/T net, rear HQ, Divisional Admin Services, rear comms for Bde HQ's, a Tactical HQ and air communictaions.

 

MInden -
And Walker entered into his diary that visit and said of Hawkesworth - that the "British are experts in apologising for their failures"

Nice - when 46th had tremendous casualties in a badly planned operation by the Army Commander - this was around the time for Walkers own 36th Div. abortive attack on San Pietro en Fine when his Division was massacred and was subject to a congressional enquiry after the war.

Cheers

 

Richard -
Since you appear to have Gen Walker's diary to hand would you mind quoting the whole entry as I may be mis construed by some as being xenophobic as it has been many years since I read of the entry of that particular meeting....
Cheers

 

Tom,

I haven't read the original diary and was using a partial quote from those used by John Ellis/ Matthew Parker in their books.

The slightly fuller quote from Walker's diary, quoted in the Parker/Ellis books is as follows:

On the afternoon of the 20th that divisional commander (46th Div) "came to my command post...to apologise for the failure of his division to cross the river last night.
His failure makes it tough for my men who now have none of the advantages that his crossing would have provided. The British are the world's greatest diplomats but you can't count on them for anything but words".

Richard

 

Rihard -
yes that quote is more to the point - but the meaning is the same as they were at times scornful of our efforts in that campaign

Cheers

 

Tom.

The 36 US Inf Div losses at San Pietro had occurred some weeks before in the fight up to Monte Cassino. After the capture of Monte Trocchio on 15 Jan 44, 36 US Inf Div were then ordered to assault across the Rapido, a task which they carried out using 143 Inf Regt on the left of San Angelo and 141 Inf Regt on the right. The Div lost 1,681 men and it was this slaughter, rather than San Pietro, that resulted in a Congressional Inquiry.

The Inquiry supported both Mark Clark and Geoffrey Keyes, Comd II (US) Corps. Fred Walker gave evidence and supported the right of both Mark Clark and Geoffrey Keyes to order the attack. This is very honourable of Fred Walker given that he was not a fan of Mark Clark.

Regards

FdeP

 

Owen -
Thought we had already done that as it turns out to be all about 46th Div in X Corps attached to US 5th Army in the Italian Campaign in the run up to Cassino mainly - Bexley - Minden and Myself were just fleshing it all out......

Cheers

 

Richard. Nice to see another family member of someone who served within the 46th. My gradfather served with the 46th in Italy, landing with the 2/4 KOYLI as a bren carrier driver... i do have the war diary upstairs if it is of use to anyone (i can look stuff up)

cheers

Richie