A Royal Artillery Prisoner of the Japanese - Help needed.

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by Jonathan Ball, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    The statement Gunner Walter Grundy gives on Liberation Questionnaire MI.9/JAP/No.29422A has been endorsed with a rubber stamp "Block No. B.A." and the numbers "36" in red written in. In addition the word "Nil" has been written on.

    "BA" and "A" in rubber stamps seem to be the alternatives, but I have only seen a handful of such forms from the Far East. I have seen various numbers between 6 and 62, with the numbers written before or after the stamped "BA" or "A".

    I have seen a "Misc" instead of a "Nil", but "Nil" is the favourite endorsement.

    At TNA a search for the liberation questionnaires of Gnr Walter Grundy's companions would involve ordering eight boxes in WO344. In addition I would recommend looking at six microfilms in WO356 ( to see if a 'Q" form was found to be interesting by MI 9, JAG, UNWCC, etc.)

    One good thing about WO356 is that it is on microfilm and only deals with the index of witnesses, about 13,000 names, who were in the Far East. On the other hand WO344 has 140,000 liberation questionnaires from Europe and the Far East, but the statement itself is there.

    So now we have quite a list of files to be seen, twenty including the files in WO361.

    It is more difficult to find the War Crimes files in WO235. Again, these are in the same file series as the European cases.

    The obvious file to look at is WO235/963 which is a case involving events on what was called the B/S case by the Judge Advocate General, meaning the "Burma Siam Railway'.

    I do know that Major W.E. Gill gave an affidavit amongst the sixty-eight affidavits and statements in the case but I have not read it and do not have a copy of it.

    David Nelson gives "Major W.E. Gill, R.A., 137(A) Fd Rgt" in his book " The Story of Changi" in his list of "Commanders of P.O.W. Parties Ex Changi." Gunner Grundy gives him the rank of Lt/Col but I think it is the same individual.

    File WO235/963 is as good a place as any to start looking at the history of the railway but it is rather a large file.

    Outside of TNA we could look at Australian Archives because the Australian Military Tribunals files involving Minor War Crimes Trials are available free online. Australian Judge Advocate General staff worked closely with the British JAG staff but ran their own cases. Their cases often involve POW Groups 3 and 5 and their interest was more towards the Burma end of the line. Some statements from British servicemen can be found in these cases, but I do not think it likely in Gunner Grundy's case.

    So far as books are concerned both David Nelson and Greg Michno have references to the transportation by sea to Saigon of POWs ex Singapore at the end of January or early February 1945, but their accounts differ. Nelson was a POW in Changi which is a good distance from River Valley Road. He does say that a list of men who left for Saigon existed but I do not know where the list is at TNA if it is now in a file in WO361, in which series many of the records of the Bureau of Record and Enquiry surfaced in April 2011. Nelson and his colleagues were working under obvious constraints.

    Greg Michno's book: " Death on The Hellships" ( ISBN 0-85052-821-6) gives a list of vessels and their intended destinations. The only vessel which set out for Saigon from Singapore after July 1944 was the "Haruyasa Maru".

    The Nominal Roll in WO361/2095 is likely to have a record of the departure against Gunner Grundy's name. There should be the letters "OVL" and a date in 1942, but crossed through, and the letters "OVS" and a date in 1945 added. The letters stand for Overland and Overseas.

    The IJA card in WO345/22 is the obvious place to look. The reason the POWs set up the BRE was that they realised that there was only one IJA card and that when a POW moved from Changi it moved with him so there might never be a central record that the individual had become a POW. The Japanese were not renowned for their administrative abilities in this area.
     
  2. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    I am hopeless at computers so don't understand how to post photos. As it is I have to run to Owen to correct my mistakes. Anyway, here's a bit more.

    Major J.W.Seekings R.A. made an affidavit which should be on WO235/983 because it is mentioned in open court ( I do not have the full transcript) which involves events in Saigon over a long period.

    There are more affidavits and statements, some made by Gunners. There is a Q form on the file which does not have a pre-printed unique number because it is an Australian form completed by a British soldier. There is a pre-printed file reference and space for insertion of a number which begins: "E.Gp/Int/Q....."

    Sgt. R.A. Myers 2059517 of 316/5 S.L. Regt. R.A. completes the form and states, amongst other things:

    " April 1942-Aug. 1945. POW Camp Rue Jean Eudel Saigon.

    General camp conditions bad insufficient food and water and clothing bad accomodations. Continuous employment on war work, dock work, making gun emplacements aerodromes etc. Continued beatings and torture for trivial or no offences."

    This statement is admissable as evidence although it is not a sworn statement because of the particular rules of evidence applying to War Crimes cases. The original and a typed copy are are on the file.

    Here is a listing of possibilities for files referring to Saigon in WO361,one or more of which may have a mention of Gnr Grundy:

    WO 361/1182 Far East: deaths in Saigon prisoner of war camp, No 8 Branch Thailand 1945 Nov 15
    WO 361/1437 Far East: Indo-China; deaths at Saigon POW Camp; from Gunner J E Mitchell 1946 Feb 15 - 1946 Feb 19
    WO 361/1722 Far East: Singapore, Saigon and Thailand; report of experiences by W N B George, Royal Artillery 1946 Apr 28 - 1946 Aug 09
    WO 361/1769 Prisoners of war, Far East: smuggled-out list of prisoners of war held in Saigon, French Indo-China 1942 Jan 01 - 1942 Dec 31
    WO 361/1770 Prisoners of war, Far East: list of personnel whose death has occurred in Saigon, French Indo-china 1942 Jan 01 - 1942 Dec 31
    WO 361/1987 Prisoners of war, Far East: British, 3 Group, Saigon; Americans, all groups; British, 4 Group 1942 Jan 01 - 1945 Dec 31
    WO 361/2000 Prisoners of war, Far East: Thailand Camp 10, Saigon; nominal roll 1945 Jan 01 - 1945 Dec 31
    WO 361/2001 Prisoners of war, Far East: Thailand No 10 Group, Saigon; nominal roll, as at 12 September 1945 1945 Jan 01 - 1945 Sep 30
    WO 361/2016 Prisoners of war, Far East: Allied POWs held in Saigon (captured in Sumatra) 1942 Jan 01 - 1945 Dec 31
    WO 361/2045 Prisoners of war, Far East: photographs of POW camp survivors in Rangoon, Saigon, Java and New Guinea; aerial photographs of POW camps in Singapore and Malaya 1943 Jan 01 - 1945 Dec 31
    WO 361/2168 Prisoners of war, Far East: British military personnel, No 3 Group and Saigon; nominal roll 1942 Jan 01 - 1945 Dec 31
    WO 361/2196 Prisoners of war, Far East: British POWs in Thailand and Saigon as at 1st August 1945; nominal roll 1942 Jan 01 - 1945 Dec 31
     
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  3. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    The list of nicknames from index cards in WO356/23 and 24 linked to the code JC/37 is as follows. This is not a complete list.The code JC/37 was assigned by staff of the Judge Advocate General and covers Saigon, Fumi or Phumi, Saigon Docks and Saigon F.I.C. ( French Indo China). The object of the card index was to record all uses of the nickname to try and tie it to a proper name of a person.

    Some of these nicknames may have been used of other Japanese or Koreans in different camps, although some seem to be unique.

    They are: The Ape, The Bastard, The Bat, The Beard, The Black Prince, Bladder Lips, Bosseye aka Cockeye, Dogs Killer, Donald Duck, Eato aka Eats, Farmer's Boy, Fish Face, Gentleman Jim, Herman, Jimmy, The Killer, The Lout, Mad Gunso, Marble Face, Masturbation, Mussolini, Nickademus, Pin Head, Pug Face, Roman Nose, Rubber Lips aka Blubber Lips, Sadist, The Snipe, Storm Trooper, and The Tygo aka The Tyjo.
     
  4. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    John

    This is amazingly detailed and quite brilliant work you are doing. I'm slowly going through the information you have collated to see which documents to have a look at first.

    Thanks once more.

    Jonathan
     
  5. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Congrats again on some outstanding information papiermache.
    Jonathan, you must be very pleased with your result here.:)
     
  6. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Thanks Jonathan, but the proof of the pudding will be in what the files say. Probably best to go for the usual files. Hopefully the IJA card will be readable. I know that the BRE had a hand in maintaining some of these cards but I haven't quite worked out how the system worked. If Gunner Grundy was in Thailand Administration I Group, which I think he was, then the card should have a new grouping when he arrives in Saigon. The Japanese called Groups "Camps", which is a bit confusing, but it looks like Group 10 will be the new home of Gunner Grundy in February 1945: I previously said he travelled in July 1944, which was wrong. If I was going to Kew I would at least look at the microfilm, but I am not going to be visiting for quite a while.

    Steve, Nothing compared to your efforts. If I could find my photos on my computer more quickly I could make faster progress. I did most of the research because of the ss Hofuku Maru but the nicknames transcriptions I did because the contents appealed to me. For some strange reason War Crimes files appeal to me. The real job would be to list the W0235 cases by the names of the prosecution witnesses so that searchers could find a relative, etc. Given that Q forms were admissable without further reference to the maker I think it likely that those makers had no idea that their handwritten accounts had been read out in court. There are three Saigon cases but only one "main" one, as it were, dealing in general matters over long periods, the one I have referred to. The names of the defendants ( two acquittals, three fairly light sentences) are meaningless. But how does one list the names: rank, initials, number or rank, christian names, unit, number, ( often in affidavits ). Does the surname or rank come first ? In the case of Japanese, as you know, the surname comes first, then the first name, and the rank is not given. There are 89 cases involving POWs in Far East cases. I am rambling, but that is what I was thinking. Thanks anyway.
     
  7. greglewis

    greglewis Member

    Some amazing research here.

    Two random thoughts.

    It's hard to come by but former Changi prisoner David Nelson kept a tally of the drafts in and out of Changi and later recorded his memories in the book, ‘The Story of Changi Singapore’.

    Les Spence's war diary, which I was honoured to edit, includes a section at Changi and reference notes relating to a number of prisoners who were to end up at Kanchanaburi. It was published this year as 'From Java to Nagasaki' From Java to Nagasaki | Magic Rat Books
     
  8. bsidebaby

    bsidebaby New Member

    Hi if OVL is overland what would CHA be that has been crossed out and OVL put beside it? Thanks :)
     
  9. michael15

    michael15 New Member

    Hello,my nane is Michael, i appreciate that i am writing to you three years after your posting, however i hope that you dont mind my contacting you. my son and i have been researching my late uncle, who was in same outfit as mr grundy,in fact, mr grundys hand written records show my uncle s date of death .his name was william sanderson died 24nov43. it could be that they knew each other.if possible , coild you contact me kind regards, michael kirkham
     
  10. kevinjones

    kevinjones Member

    Hi, my great uncle also served with the 137th Field Regiment, according to the camps your sister in laws grandfather was held in, my great uncle was also held in the same camps
     

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