In 1940 when norway was invaded the german military arrested all the students in Oslo. My grandfather was lucky and had been out the night before and overslept. He came to the university hungover and tired. When he saw the germans at the university he understood what was going on and ran home. Then he joined up with a part of the norwegian army wich was disoriented and confused. As he arrived a a german airraid started and he jumped into a foxhole. In that very foxhole he met his brother who he had not seen for several years. His brother starts screaming at him and tells him to get the hell out of there, beacause he did not want them both to die if they were hit. They both made it out of there alive. After being captured by german military forces my grandfather escaped and fled to Sweden. In the late parts of the war he joined a troop of what was called the "swedish-troops" or something like that, wich consisted purely of norwegian men who had fled to sweden. They encounterd surrendering germans and helped soviet POW's back to Soviet. Once when they had met a surrendering german troop he got into a conversation with the highest ranking officer of that perticular troop. The german gave him his luger beacause he hated the soviets so intensely that he did not want them to have it. My grandmother still have that gun. Many years later he found out what had happened to the Soviet troops when they returned home. Almost all of them were shot because they had surrendered to the enemy. He was very bothered by this.
Welcome to the forum and it was good to read your grandfathers story. it goes us an insight to what happened in other countries.
Marting, thank you for joining us and sharing your grandfather's story. The Norwegians and Danes both formed units of troops in neutral Sweden from interned and escaped military personnel, late in the war, to move into their home countries as soon as Germany collapsed, to restore order and the flag. Your grandfather was in that force, obviously. The Soviets executed many of their returned POWs. The deadly combination was Stalinist paranoia of outside "infection" and the fact that many Soviet POWs had served for the Germans, either as Hilfsfreiwilliger -- "Free Will Auxiliaries" -- as cooks, grooms, barracks cleaners, and so forth, or in the "Ost" battalions that fattened up otherwise understrength German divisions. The Nazis also created anti-Soviet legions of Russian troops, including the 16th Cossack Cavalry Corps, which fought in Yugoslavia, the RONA Army under General Andrei Vlasov, and several SS outfits, including the dreaded Miesezlaw Kaminski Brigade, which slaughtered Poles by the bushel in Warsaw. Their pillaging and raping was so bad that even Himmler was appalled, and Kaminski was shot. The pot didn't think much of the kettle.... Hope that helps.
Welcome to the boards, and thank you for sharing the story about your grandfather. I am always fascinated by real-life accounts.
Thank you, I am. He passed away too early for me to really get to know him, but I appreciate what he and other brave Norwegians did to save my country from falling apart after the german forces retreated.
(marting @ Jun 11 2005, 10:40 PM) [post=35227]Many years later he found out what had happened to the Soviet troops when they returned home. Almost all of them were shot because they had surrendered to the enemy. He was very bothered by this. [/b] I don't know why communism and the Soviet Republic is not as hated as nazism and Nazi Germany. Stalin killed just as many people, probably more, than Hitler caused. And with communism still very alive, and China as my example, it is proof of how horrible the Communism ideology is.
(bartsch @ Nov 29 2005, 09:59 AM) [post=42251](marting @ Jun 11 2005, 10:40 PM) [post=35227]Many years later he found out what had happened to the Soviet troops when they returned home. Almost all of them were shot because they had surrendered to the enemy. He was very bothered by this. [/b] I don't know why communism and the Soviet Republic is not as hated as nazism and Nazi Germany. Stalin killed just as many people, probably more, than Hitler caused. And with communism still very alive, and China as my example, it is proof of how horrible the Communism ideology is. [/b] Communism's butchery was not as much race-based as class-based. And it was, sadly, more even-handed. Stalin whacked most of his own best supporters. What made Nazism truly horrific was that it sought to exterminate entire ethnicities completely from the earth. A Jew could live in a Communist state, if he supported Communism and the glorious leader du jour. But a Jew could not live in a Nazi state. The same would hold true for a Gypsy (Roma), Pole, and so on. That's the central difference.
'I don't know why communism and the Soviet Republic is not as hated as nazism and Nazi Germany.' Not sure about which period you're referring to bartsch, meaning during W.W.II, after it or now? During W.W.II the Soviets were our Allies, and while they were taking part in fighting Germany they were the good guys - Uncle Joe Stalin etc. Also, as I've pointed out elsewhere, 60 years ago was not an age of instant news for the general public. Especially at war time, results which served mutually desired ends were more important than perhaps how they were achieved. Stalin was not trusted and grew to be a threat to Europe and the western world as the war progressed. I grew-up in the wake of W.W.II and the Soviets were the enemy who might attack at any time. It wasn't till years later I appreciated the lineage, but at the time the Soviets were the enemy and that's the way it was - irrespective of how much history you knew. I don't expect anyone would have minded the Soviets, or their alleged Communist doctrine, if they had not professed and demonstrated a philosophy that they should make the rest of the world Communist - and of course, had a serious capability to back it. I've said 'alleged' Communist doctrine as the Communist philosophy is not in itself evil, only the way in which those in command choose to interpret and enforce it. Kiwi, I appreciate your personal view, but ethnic or religious issues were pursued by the Communists as well. In respect of western opinion, war was declared and pursued as a result of Hitler's continued aggressive expansionism, nothing to do with population culling. Sad to say but true, no one drew a line in the sand for Germany after Kristallnacht in November 1938. Hypothetical of course, but if Hitler conducted internal genocide without crossing any borders, I doubt there would have been a war just as no one has been willing to go to war with the Soviets or China for anything they may have done domestically. No.9
Without Joseph Stalin, the Soviet communist system may not have been so bad. I say this a little tongue in cheek as somebody more evil may have taken his place. Similarly, would the Soviet people have fought as desparately as they did under another leader? As Kiwiwriter states, a targeted race that would not exist under the Nazi regime, could exist under the Communist regime as long as they were not considered a threat to the state and therefore Stalin's dominance of that state. The total annihilation of a race was not the aim however in some instances it may have been quite astonishing numbers. Hitler cleansed by murder......Stalin just murdered .
(bartsch @ Nov 30 2005, 01:59 AM) [post=42251](marting @ Jun 11 2005, 10:40 PM) [post=35227]Many years later he found out what had happened to the Soviet troops when they returned home. Almost all of them were shot because they had surrendered to the enemy. He was very bothered by this. [/b] I don't know why communism and the Soviet Republic is not as hated as nazism and Nazi Germany. Stalin killed just as many people, probably more, than Hitler caused. And with communism still very alive, and China as my example, it is proof of how horrible the Communism ideology is. [/b] Is it the ideology that is abhorrent or the instrument of brutality that enforces such ideologies on it's people. Then again, is it what the people want or what they are forced to accept and endure? The Soviets were given their much awaited "freedom" and they were joyful. The food on the shelves disappeared and they wanted to return to the system. They had not ceased to think under Communism, they had ceased to think for themselves. <span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:100%">I feel sorry for those peoples of the world who have never had the opportunity in their lifetime to make a choice of how they wish to exist on this earth.</span>
(No.9 @ Nov 29 2005, 03:39 PM) [post=42273]'I don't know why communism and the Soviet Republic is not as hated as nazism and Nazi Germany.' Kiwi, I appreciate your personal view, but ethnic or religious issues were pursued by the Communists as well. In respect of western opinion, war was declared and pursued as a result of Hitler's continued aggressive expansionism, nothing to do with population culling. Sad to say but true, no one drew a line in the sand for Germany after Kristallnacht in November 1938. Hypothetical of course, but if Hitler conducted internal genocide without crossing any borders, I doubt there would have been a war just as no one has been willing to go to war with the Soviets or China for anything they may have done domestically. No.9 [/b] I'm quite aware that Communist regimes and leaders have pursued ethnicities and religions with gusto and savagery. However, the point I am making is that the Communists did not say, "We will undertake a final solution to the Jewish/Muslim/Polish/Roma question." Their primary rhetoric was based on class lines...the capitalists, the bourgeois, the revanchists, and so on. Nazism's rhetoric is and was based on racial and ethnic lines. That is the key difference between Nazism and Communism...the basis of their philosophy and the choice of their enemies...who are ironically often the same people.
(Kiwiwriter @ Nov 30 2005, 01:30 PM) [post=42309](No.9 @ Nov 29 2005, 03:39 PM) [post=42273]'I don't know why communism and the Soviet Republic is not as hated as nazism and Nazi Germany.' Kiwi, I appreciate your personal view, but ethnic or religious issues were pursued by the Communists as well. In respect of western opinion, war was declared and pursued as a result of Hitler's continued aggressive expansionism, nothing to do with population culling. Sad to say but true, no one drew a line in the sand for Germany after Kristallnacht in November 1938. Hypothetical of course, but if Hitler conducted internal genocide without crossing any borders, I doubt there would have been a war just as no one has been willing to go to war with the Soviets or China for anything they may have done domestically. No.9 [/b] I'm quite aware that Communist regimes and leaders have pursued ethnicities and religions with gusto and savagery. However, the point I am making is that the Communists did not say, "We will undertake a final solution to the Jewish/Muslim/Polish/Roma question." Their primary rhetoric was based on class lines...the capitalists, the bourgeois, the revanchists, and so on. Nazism's rhetoric is and was based on racial and ethnic lines. That is the key difference between Nazism and Communism...the basis of their philosophy and the choice of their enemies...who are ironically often the same people. [/b] Sorry ig my grm is uncrct!!!!!!!!! Communists/Stalins primary retoric was based on class lines..! Dos it gave them rights to kill innocent people! We know that communists have killed just like Natzis did! Thanks for Vladimir Rezun (Viktor Suvorov) we know about Stalins imperial planes! Stalin also had started with the plan realiźatison. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland(with Germany together but still), Bessarabia(Moldova), Finnland The inocent people died there becouse of Communists actions. And during the killing process communists told to the russian people that those who were killed was bourgeois and have no rights to live! Natzis did the samewith jews Communists did the same with the people of different natzions ! So! Bouth have killed! Bouth behaved wrong! My grandparents suffered bacause of Communists not less than Jews b.o. Natzis No differents between Communistsand Natzis! God bless the souls who have to die!
Nice story. His experience in Sweden was a lucky one. Earlier in the war when Sweden seemed to have a more pro german stance a massive number of escaping Norwegians were interred for the duration. This also happened to Army personnel. Only after 1942 and the german invasion of Russia did things change. The Swedes helped with clandestine camps to train soldiers under the cover of Health and Work camps so it is probable that your grandfather was trained in one of these. Kind regards MG
"Without Joseph Stalin, the Soviet communist system may not have been so bad." spidge, without Stalin I think we would have had Trotsky. For better or worse? ......the point I am making is that the Communists did not say, "We will undertake a final solution to the Jewish/Muslim/Polish/Roma question." Kiwi, I do not disagree with your point that Hitler made a particular issue of Jewish persecution, and to be effected world-wide, but I do not see it was the key difference between nazism and Communism, nor that Jews lived in the USSR persecution free. I see the key difference laying in how the respective States were to develop and the living conditions of the general populous. Hitler's ideal was a Germany peopled, in the main, by 'pure' Aryans who, in his opinion, were after all superior among mankind. Not every acceptable German citizen had to be 'pure' Aryan as every parade requires to groups. One to march in the parade and one to cheer them. While everyone was obliged to love their Fuhrer and serve the State, within these criteria enterpise was encouraged and indeed did prosper - the more and better you worked, the more you prospered. Stalin on the other hand, while demanding the same blind devotion criteria, wanted drone citizens as spidge points out, who in the Communist ideal worked for the good of the State which in return provided them with their needs, as determined by the State. Produce above your quota, all of which went to the State, and you earned no more. Hitler sought to cull the populations under his control, particularly in Germany and particularly Jews on a global basis. Stalin had an acute paranoia directed at anyone in a position which influenced anyone else. The Communist Manifesto (Marx-Engles 1848) advocates State ownership of land ("all property is to be held in common") and the disposition of landowners and thereby the ruling classes which Stalin pursued down to peasants who showed any signs of wealth and/or enterprise, (the campaign of mass executions launched against the kulaks). Stalin's 'Final Solution' did exist in the form of his 'Five Year Plans' to collectivise the land and establish manufacturing power bases. Singled out for particularly harsh treatment were the Ukrainians where more died than Jews under Hitler. Stalin may not have set-up a chain of Death Camps as such, however the vast network of Labour Camps, Gulag Archipelago, amounted to the same thing since survival rates were as low as 2% and not more than 10%. Random execution by shooting was widespread and common place. Stalin did not introduce religious persecution no more than Hitler introduced persecution of Gypsies. Communist doctrine is against religion as was enforced by Lenin, while anti-Gypsy laws were already on the statute book when Hitler came to power. Both however, pursued these mandates with avengeance. Some Jews did survive in the Soviet during the war, but had virtually no freedom to practice their religion, certainly not overtly. Jews served in Soviet forces as did Poles. However, with the rate the Soviets were using man power, Stalin released some prisoners to serve. Furthermore, Stalin's daughter, Svetlana, stated: "His anti-Semitism surely originated from the long years of struggle with Trotsky and his supporters,. What was originally political hate gradually became a feeling of racial hatred against all Jews, without exception." I'm sure you're familiar with Stalin's last persecution of Jews which started after the war in 1947. Initially known as 'The Doctor's Plot', derailed by Stalin's death in 1953 it ended up being termed 'Stalin's Unfinished Holocaust'. While exact figures will never be known, Stalin is attributed with overseeing the deaths of at least 43 million people from mass starvation, purges, executions and deaths in the labour camps, which actually is probably in excess of 50 million. No.9
