Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Emanuel1940, Aug 16, 2014.
No worries Stuart. There is an image of the memorial in the book with three names on it.
I have downloaded your link that you have kindly provided.
Below is the back of the memorial which shows the names of the Bays & 11 HAC Regiment. Its interesting to note a AN UNKNOWN TROOPER. Its the first time that i have had a close look at it. Would it be OK to start a conversation with you?
I'm struggling to download the pages of the war diaries that you have posted! I can see them on the forum, but i cant see them on my laptop. Thumbnail images? Here are the Latitude & Longatude No's of the Bays. 44.0054 &12.4837. I've not checked it out on Google Earth.
But of course.
My late father was conscripted into the Queen's Bays in WW2. My brothers & I know nothing of his service other than he was in North Africa & Italy, but wish to learn as much as possible of where he served & when. I anticipate that the Regimental Diary would be the best source but have no idea whether this can be obtained in any format. Please can anyone assist?
I have copies of the diary which I am happy to provide you, there will be a cost, the money to be paid into this fundraising effort for the RAF Benevolent Fund: https://bit.ly/3cjKFFl.
I will need to calculate the amount and send to you, please let me know specific dates.
Also, what was your father’s name?
Name: Denis Leo George Robinson-Woledge
Army No. 7947170
Rank on discharge Cpl
I am researching my Uncle's military history, 2nd Lieutenant James Henry Owens and have just joined this forum having established some details, with a lot still missing!
The attached copies show that he was enlisted in the army as a young soldier, ( possibly around 1920? ) The attached records show that he was in the Queen's Bays and then, I am guessing transferred to the 3rd Royal Tank Regiment when the Bays were assigned to the Royal Armoured Corps in 1939. The records show that he died on 21 November 1941 in "North Africa" and he is commemorated at Halfaya Sollum War Cemetery.
Can you give me guidance on how I can research whether his death was in action during Operation Crusader, as it seems to coincide with the commencement of that and the battle around Sidi Rezegh. Also I would be interested in how to research further detail about his long military career, if possible, plus an understanding as to why he was not awarded the Africa Star for his apparent service there.
To confirm all the details you have provided you should apply for his service records: Get a copy of military service records: Apply for the records of someone who's deceased - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk). There is an extremely long wait on these.
To start you off, I have located a document that shows he joined the Royal Tank Regiment in 1921.
This page in the London Gazette, shows when he was promoted: Page 7240 | Supplement 35390, 19 December 1941 | Lo...
I am searching through the sources I have access to, and will add if I find anything.
This record shows he died of his wounds, so he may have been wounded earlier than dates provided by records online. Again, his records from the MOD will confirm anything posted here.
Have a look at the book Taming the Panzers by Patrick Delaforce. A PDF of the book is available here: Taming The Panzers PDF | PDF | Tanks | Company (Military Unit) (scribd.com), James gets a single mention within the chapter on Crusader.
You should try and get a copy of the 3 RTR diaries available at the National Archives (UK), Kew. You could also try the Tank Museum at Bovington, they have transcribed copies of the Diary, I believe. There may also be members here who have copies of the Diaries who may be able to provide you with copies.
You could also look at Bill Close's Tank Commander, while James does not get a mention, it will provide further details on Operation Crusader. A copy is available on Scribd, a subscription may be necessary for you to read the book, a trial period exists (well it did when I first started using the service). This link will take you to Chapter 7, Operation Crusader: Tank Commander: From the Fall of France to the Defeat of Germany: The Memoirs of Bill Close (scribd.com)
Thank you so much for your prompt and informative replies. This will help me a lot in moving on with my research through the various channels you have suggested.
I am still puzzled however about the reference to the Queens Bays in the War Records.png document attached to my first post? Might this be an error or would he have been attached to the Regiment in some way?
I am working through the originals of the 1942 Army Lists, so far I have not found his name associated with the Queen’s Bays. I shall keep you updated. He may have been attached, I shall work my way through the Bays War Diaries to see if he gets a mention. His records will be the definitive source to solve this though.
For CRUSADER, Owens was in 3RTR. He is listed on their October Nominal Roll as a 2/Lt acting of temporarily in the rank of Lt.
Lt Owens lead a tank replenishment party from reserve up to C Sqn lines overnight 19/20 November losing 2 tanks enroute.
Lt Owens was seriously wounded in the morning of 21 November. At the time 3RTR were tracking - but not engaging - withdrawing German forces. Whilst not definitive, it would seem to be that the incident/action where he was wounded occured just south of a location known as Bir Bu Meliha on the British maps.
Your attached pdf file makes no mention of the Bays.
Your attached png file incorrectly lists him as Bays. Whoever created that file misread the London Gazette entry that Mark BFBSM linked to.
If that is your only connection to the Bays, I suggest you assume that he had no connection to the Bays.
If you want more information, there is a link on the bottom of the original pdf file which you can follow to hire a researcher.
I fear you are putting in a huge amount of time and effort for nothing.
Irrespective of the apparant false recording of the Bays, he was granted an emergency commission on 21 August 1941 and died exactly 3 months later. I suspect he never made it into any Army List published under any regiment. Still, if somebody has time to burn, that might be confirmed or refuted by a thorough examination of the late 1941 editions.
Thank you so much for this additional, specific information regarding my Uncle. I shall follow your advice and try to get the 3RTR diaries from the National Archives and will also go through the Tank Museum at Bovington. I had accessed their website early on in my research but they were closed down at the time due to Covid 19 restrictions. Your attention to my post has however given me a much clearer picture of the circumstances of his death and much more than I hoped for when I joined this forum. You have also confirmed that he was a Regular Soldier for 20 years and gave his adult life to the military, but I know, from family photographs and anecdotal information that he had a happy life in the army and that his 3 sons were cared for after his death and educated through military school. Unfortunately two of them are now dead and the third would be in his mid eighties, but of his own volition he severed links with the rest of the family many years ago when he took up employment away from the family home. I am also trying to trace him to see if he is still alive.
I would be happy to make a donation to this platform, as a way of expressing my gratitude if you could point me in the right direction.
Whilst I accept and thank you for the information, and I, in my limited research have found no evidence of a link to the Bays, the posting in the London Gazette lists a number of entries under The Bays for Emergency Commissions, of which my uncle was just one, so any mistake would have been in the list, not by someone misinterpreting it.? I accept that such an error was possible and have no problem with it, I am simply trying to get an accurate picture as part of family history. I am most grateful with your research and the information provided, which has helped me get a clearer picture, and accept that he may not have been included in any Army List as I do not have any military experience or knowledge of their records.
In the London Gazette, Owen is one of 5 names listed as being granted an emergency commission in the RAC. One is shown as transfering from KDG to Bays, the other 4 have no indication of which regiment they (will) serve in. It does NOT say all 5 were in the Bays.
The format (viz indenting) may not make this perfectly clear to the casual reader, but the wording and nature of the data presentation when read in and for detail is unambiguous.
The first entry, Sherbrook, is detailing a transfer. The following 4 are detailing new commissions. That is clear from the wording.
It is further clarified by the clear separation indicated by the words and punctuation "The undermentionned to be 2nd Lts. :-".
In other words, there are 5 separate and unrelated entries which have been grouped into 'transfers' and 'new'.
The person who identified Owen as being in the Bays read the London Gazette too casually and thus made the error. Poor attention to detail.
Thank you, points noted, gratefully accepted and with due respect and attention to detail, the name is OWENS
I guess I'm on the wrong forum?
Separate names with a comma.