A few questions

Discussion in 'The Holocaust' started by Elven6, Jul 19, 2009.

  1. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    I have a few questions that revolve largely around the aftermath of the liberation of concentration camps during the war, although a few sub-questions might be about the war itself.

    • From what I've been told on this forum, certain S.S. units were involved with the killing of Jews and other prisoners within these camps and the odd few Heer unit transferring in. When the camps were liberated and the horrors within revealed, some people wanted revenge. Again from what I'm told on this forum, the Allies had a saying that went something like "if they are Heer then take them prisoner, if they are S.S. take them out back and shoot them", did this change after the discovery? My uneducated assumption is it may have taken a while to know what we do today about the internal workings of the army, party, etc.
    • During the inevitable take over of German towns, cities, etc. How were Germans who lived far from the camps (since I know those who lived nearby were given "tours") treated? In turn, how did they treat German soldiers returning from the front? I read a bit of Blood Red Snow and the soldier who wrote it claims society was rather harsh to them for nearly a decade after the war as far as I read at least, the book didn't go into why the hate was present in society.
    • For the Veterans: When did you find out about the Holocaust? If it was during the war, how did it change your perspective of the enemy? If it was after, what did you think then?
    • How did the world react when the horrors were revealed to them? Did the treatment of Jews change? I do know the Reform Judaism (I think that's what it is called) movement became popular in North America after the war ended as a response to what happened in Germany.
    That's basically it, any help would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Steve G

    Steve G Senior Member

    4. I wouldn't know about the Jews. But, it was SNAFU for the Gypsys.
     
  3. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    4. I wouldn't know about the Jews. But, it was SNAFU for the Gypsys.

    How so?
     
  4. Steve G

    Steve G Senior Member

    Given where you live now, and where ye were born? I can quite see ye questioning my statement. I was speaking from the viewpoint of Europe, of course.

    Simple and sad fact is, Elven, that the Gypsys are, to this very day, about the One ethnic minority group for who it's still 'Open Season' ~ in Europe / UK. The very type of shit which the Nazi propaganda machine spewed out to discredit the Jews and promulgate mass hysterical hatred of Them is still part and parcel of every day social norm, 'over here' today ~ as long as it implicates Gypsys.

    " Ethnic Cleansing " ? " Genocide " ? Horror!!!

    " Aaahh, but; We are talking about Gypsys here ....."

    Oh? Gypsys? * Cough!* Well; That's a different matter ....!
     
  5. playeru

    playeru Junior Member

    Given where you live now, and where ye were born? I can quite see ye questioning my statement. I was speaking from the viewpoint of Europe, of course.

    Simple and sad fact is, Elven, that the Gypsys are, to this very day, about the One ethnic minority group for who it's still 'Open Season' ~ in Europe / UK. The very type of shit which the Nazi propaganda machine spewed out to discredit the Jews and promulgate mass hysterical hatred of Them is still part and parcel of every day social norm, 'over here' today ~ as long as it implicates Gypsys.

    " Ethnic Cleansing " ? " Genocide " ? Horror!!!

    " Aaahh, but; We are talking about Gypsys here ....."

    Oh? Gypsys? * Cough!* Well; That's a different matter ....!



    I live in a country where gypsies might make as much as 10% of the population. The racism in mainly limited on talk, jokes - which is not right of course, but there is hardy any mention of genocide.
     
  6. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    Given where you live now, and where ye were born? I can quite see ye questioning my statement. I was speaking from the viewpoint of Europe, of course.

    Simple and sad fact is, Elven, that the Gypsys are, to this very day, about the One ethnic minority group for who it's still 'Open Season' ~ in Europe / UK. The very type of shit which the Nazi propaganda machine spewed out to discredit the Jews and promulgate mass hysterical hatred of Them is still part and parcel of every day social norm, 'over here' today ~ as long as it implicates Gypsys.

    " Ethnic Cleansing " ? " Genocide " ? Horror!!!

    " Aaahh, but; We are talking about Gypsys here ....."

    Oh? Gypsys? * Cough!* Well; That's a different matter ....!



    I don't think there is a very high population of Gypsies in Canada so any such conditions they are presently living in are new to me. Does this also include the Romani people?

    From what I can remember, Gypsies are largely associated with Circuses and Midway fairs, at least here.
     
  7. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Elven, a good book for you will be James Lucas' "Last Days of the Reich".

    Finished reading it a couple of weeks ago and it's a good description on events.
     
  8. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    Elven, a good book for you will be James Lucas' "Last Days of the Reich".

    Finished reading it a couple of weeks ago and it's a good description on events.

    Do you agree with the comments left on Amazon about the writer not keeping focus, sympathizing with the S.S., etc?
     
  9. Steve G

    Steve G Senior Member

    Playeru and Elven6; Sorry, lads. I'm just starting to work out that this place only lets me in and active around midnight +, my time. I can guarantee ye I'll have had a glass or two before I get in here then. As my father always warned me; 'Never take a numbed mind to an intellectual stage!' :rolleyes:

    It would be impossible, no matter how alert, to try and cover both ye comments in a succinct manner ~ this is, after all, one helluva subject, in depth and breadth. So please don't demand I explain every nuance in one thread, any more than ye'd ask anyone to encapsulate " WW2 ", with full citation, in a post .... ;)

    Trying to keep it simple then? England and Italy spring to mind when I personally think of contemporary zones of this 'Open Season' approach to 'Racism Doesn't Apply To Gypsys'. I can't help thinking of the recent Bother in the Balkans either. Introduce Martial law to either of the first two round about now? I'd be glad not to be there!

    " Talk, jokes. " ? Sure. Like when a guy asked the taxi driver who the guy in the back was. To be told, " Just some dirty, stinking Gypo'. " The driver only said that. " Talk. " Possibly as a " Joke ". But I still found myself hitching a ride into town after that night.

    Canadian Roma? " Romani " peoples is fine by me, Elvan6. But, even that's comparable to calling all native American people " Indians ". Some are touchy and particular. I insist on my personal use of the term " Gypsys " because I feel it sort of favours none and covers most ;)

    To the best of my knowledge, the American Gypsys are, by now, largely settled and largely quite well off. Australians too. I'd suspect any entering Canada 'Made it' just as well. Maybe this has something to do with the Gypsys inherent abilities, left to compete on an even field? Though, I expect, most kept their heads down about their racial identity. At least to 'outsiders'.

    This author ~ although by no means a favourite of mine ~ should lead the hungriest of readers to satiety;

    A BRIEF ROMANI HOLOCAUST CHRONOLOGY

    Google about a bit.


    My apologies if this isn't my best ever post. It's gone 03:35 and I'm not at my best. Nor shall I likely be, by the next time I get in here, due to the current server prob's and my own work schedule. But, I'm sure we're all doing our best ;)
     
  10. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    Playeru and Elven6; Sorry, lads. I'm just starting to work out that this place only lets me in and active around midnight +, my time. I can guarantee ye I'll have had a glass or two before I get in here then. As my father always warned me; 'Never take a numbed mind to an intellectual stage!' :rolleyes:

    It would be impossible, no matter how alert, to try and cover both ye comments in a succinct manner ~ this is, after all, one helluva subject, in depth and breadth. So please don't demand I explain every nuance in one thread, any more than ye'd ask anyone to encapsulate " WW2 ", with full citation, in a post .... ;)

    Trying to keep it simple then? England and Italy spring to mind when I personally think of contemporary zones of this 'Open Season' approach to 'Racism Doesn't Apply To Gypsys'. I can't help thinking of the recent Bother in the Balkans either. Introduce Martial law to either of the first two round about now? I'd be glad not to be there!

    " Talk, jokes. " ? Sure. Like when a guy asked the taxi driver who the guy in the back was. To be told, " Just some dirty, stinking Gypo'. " The driver only said that. " Talk. " Possibly as a " Joke ". But I still found myself hitching a ride into town after that night.

    Canadian Roma? " Romani " peoples is fine by me, Elvan6. But, even that's comparable to calling all native American people " Indians ". Some are touchy and particular. I insist on my personal use of the term " Gypsys " because I feel it sort of favours none and covers most ;)

    To the best of my knowledge, the American Gypsys are, by now, largely settled and largely quite well off. Australians too. I'd suspect any entering Canada 'Made it' just as well. Maybe this has something to do with the Gypsys inherent abilities, left to compete on an even field? Though, I expect, most kept their heads down about their racial identity. At least to 'outsiders'.

    This author ~ although by no means a favourite of mine ~ should lead the hungriest of readers to satiety;

    A BRIEF ROMANI HOLOCAUST CHRONOLOGY

    Google about a bit.


    My apologies if this isn't my best ever post. It's gone 03:35 and I'm not at my best. Nor shall I likely be, by the next time I get in here, due to the current server prob's and my own work schedule. But, I'm sure we're all doing our best ;)

    Nothing in life is ever a simple topic to cover, I understand. :)

    I thought I should ask about the Romani thing because from what I've read on the Wiki at least, the term Gypsy has taken many different forms over the years in different parts of the world.

    It seems in Germany at least that the Romani people have had troubles for quite some time. Amazing really, the Holocaust and Nazi Germany in school curriculum, media, etc have been discussed and taught for quite some time now and this is the first I am hearing of the depth the Romani people were troubled in Germany.

    Were conditions similar in other parts of Europe? Do the Romani or Gypsy people have a homeland of their own?

    Sorry for the odd use of words like Romani, Gypsy, etc since I'm a bit confused as to what groups they represent as stated above.
     
  11. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Hi Mehar, I hadn't read the reader comments. Yes, the book concentrates a lot on the sufferings of the German people without saying much about how much such people were taking advantage of the situation while it lasted until the Oriental Hordes came. :rolleyes:

    However I have to say the reader comments aren't all that impartial as the book also tells of massacres, of really rotten Gauleiters, cruelty of the SS, thrm getting their just deserts, etc. But at times one stays with the impression that the book is rather unbalanced, something one shouldn't expect any more on a modern book. But if you are aware of all this I still think it's worth reading.

    As for Gypsies or whatever they are designated, over here in Europe it all depends, if I may tuck in as well.

    In my own country they are mostly a wreteched separate society, analphabetism is quite prevalent, the only legal work they can find is as clothes sellers in country fairs (I'm not even going to try to explain this!). They are a very strange group as they simply won't mix with anyone. Other immigrant groups start to mingle more or less /we have plenty of Africans and Eastern Europeans who happily intermarry or equivalent), but the Gypsies have kept to themselves for the last centuries to their detriment. And they are a tiny minority. Now in other places in SE Europe they are a very significant minority (I'm thinking of Romania) and there per what I read a progeam of positive discrimination had to be set in in order to bring them out of the active persecution they were undergoing under the Ceausescu dictatorship. I have no idea how well this went but I have my misgivings as the only Romanian immigrants we receive are exactly Gypsies and they only show up as panhandlers.

    People here will be able to testify that they have been attended by a Brazillian waiter, an Ukrainian doctor, an African lawyer, whatever, but nobody will be able to tell you that they have a work colleague who happens to be a Gipsy! They simply discriminate themselves out of society.
     
  12. arkrite

    arkrite Senior Member

    I live along the Welsh border and in that area you will find plenty of settled Gypsy families. Most are in civil engineering or building but some have opened shops or work in all sorts of jobs much like anyone else. The family unit though has stronger bonds than you find in the average family. I worked as a police officer for some years in this area and in my opinion the Gypsies were far more law abiding than the rest of the population.Any problems they had they tended to settle to their own rules.The families did not like behaviour which brought any disrepute upon them. This area is largely agricultural and we still have an influx of travelling Gypsy families but they are finding it harder to find work being in competition with immigrant labour who are more organised. Gypsies have been part of the Herefordshire scene for a long time and I for one would not like to see them leave.
     
  13. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Traditions vary a lot from place to place. Over here they are associated with drug and guns traffic as well as unending blood feuds that would put Calabria to shame! And cross the border in Spain they even have Gipsy MPs.

    But again, I remember now, there are brighter individual cases. There was some big trouble a while ago because of some rape within the family for traditional reasons, and one of the child's aunts decided to take the matter into her own hands. The matter turned ugly, she pricked a couple of bellies, then she surrendered to the authorities with her niece. Guess who was absolved by the court and who went to prison, banished from the family? 1) the aunt 2) the uncle her brother.

    Nevertheless it's an uphill struggle as they still make up a disproportionate part of prison population and again are at the top of the analphabetism statistics. A few months ago I witnessed a young man in his twenties laying a large wad of bankotes on the bank counter and he was unable to fill the deposit slip.
     
  14. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    Interesting, I'm convinced, I will probably order it tomorrow. Is this the same book that was written by the British war veteran?

    Selling clothes in fairs seems to be the same stereotype that portrays them here as mostly "carny folk". I will say however I haven't seen much of this stereotyping lately (maybe I'm just not paying attention).
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I sometimes do voluntary work with Gypsy Travellers in a area of Yorkshire and most of the ones I come into contact with through this work are ok and to be they fair get a pretty shit deal off of the local government (Bit of a Nimby Syndrome). On the same hand I think they as a community could do more to help themselves too.

    However that said when I was a copper I came into contact with and knew of some right bastids too, who's morales were so low compared to a snakes arse, the snake would get vertigo.

    Sadly it's a bit like an minority community - It's easy for them to get stereotyped.
     
  16. DoctorD

    DoctorD WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Haven't seen a Gypsy for many years. I was brought up in London in the late 1920's and there was a Gypsy 'enclosure' at the end of our road in Battersea. The Gypsy family, the Petrulengroes, own a gate-protected yard there where they came to overwinter, at which time the children attended my school. The rest of the year they spent in Blackpool, where they had a fortune-telling operation. They used to come in my Dad's butcher shop selling springs of heather, for good luck, also clothes pegs that they made themselves. A very close community, but never did anybody any harm. It was the didecoys that posed as Gyspys that got them an undeservedly bad name.
     
  17. Steve G

    Steve G Senior Member

    Wow! I can hardly believe I've got back in here! Yesterday was pure hell. I was trying all day and night, into the stupidly small hours. This is now about the only forum I bother with and being locked out is Hurting Bad! :(

    Now then; I hope to take the two main thrusts, from above. I felt there were two thrusts running through the generality of what's been said there. I'll probably digress though ~ It's a Gypsy Thing! :lol:

    Yeppers; The people I cavalierly lump together as " Gypsys " for such discussions as this do indeed span the world. And so there are differences as wide as geographical distribution. Equally, there are certain similarities.

    How come they're perceived as parasitic scum in one place. Politicians in another ..... :)unsure: Err ... hang about? Haven't I just made a blooper there? Is there a difference between those two?) Anyway, ye know what I mean. And that's largely down to their history in that place. Also, undeniably, in part their actual, traditional 'Trades'. Yes: Some Tribes just are career Beggars and bad buggers. It's what they do. I'm not here to deny that.

    But, just as likely, we also have traditional Copper Smiths, Black Smiths, Entertainers, etc. English Gypsys have long since settled to the traditional trades of working with metal and agricultural labour. " Petulengro " is the Gypsy word for a man who works with horse shoes. Farrier. Black Smith ..... " Smith ". Smith is one of the 'Big Five' English Gypsy names.

    So, there's a clue as to why some are seen as mysteriously romantic people who live an idealised and secreted existence down leafy lanes. People like to talk of them as " Real Romani's ". " Proper Gypsys ". Dark skin. White teeth. Golden ear rings.

    Truth is much closer to, as is said above; They now live in fastidiously well kept houses. Their children are just as likely to blue eyed blondes. They pay their Poll Tax and water rates, same as everyone else. Only, they'll almost certainly be Self Employed. This is how the English based tribes are evolving.

    Now, regarding the 'Family Thing'? Yeppers. Gypsys are fanatical about Family. They like Family around them. And it's not who ye are, it's who ye from. Family lineage is extremely important. (Interestingly, I find the Irish are very much like this. Everyone around here knows everyone elses blood line by rote. My friends here rattle of that so and so is a second cousin to who ever without concious thought)

    As a case in point; I have a certain head condition a symptom of which has seen me, over here, completely separated from my family. My case is unimaginably exceptional. But, guess what? I spend the majority of my waking hours, and literally Thousands of pounds searching for and buying the Birth, Marriage and Death Certificates of my familial ancestry. It's 'what I do'. I'm sat here, isolated in this cottage in the bog, thinking of little else but gathering my family and forbears to me. If only in a filing cabinet and web site. But I have an inherent need to do it. It's in my genome.

    And this is where the other thread comes in. 'Why are Gypsys so bloody mindedly self isolationist?'. See above. Family is Everything. And, if ye not family? You're an outsider. A stranger. My mother too told me 'Never to talk to strangers'! ;)


    As a foot note to all this; Look into the historical persecution of Gypsys and, I believe, ye'll soon see how all this comes together.
     
  18. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    What do you mean "take them out the back and shoot them"? Some of you fellows have a odd idea of British Army discipline. They were made to work carrying and burying bodies, till they dropped, and then were prodded into action again, with a bayonet. But we do not go round shooting people. Not even the SS.

    All the townsfolk were made to go to the camps and see just what they had on their conscience. The argument that they did not know.The stench of dead and burning human flesh cannot be disguised.
    Somewhere on this site I posted My Dear Friend Alan Westermans description of the camp........
    Sapper
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  20. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    What do you mean "take them out the back and shoot them"? Some of you fellows have a odd idea of British Army discipline. They were made to work carrying and burying bodies, till they dropped, and then were prodded into action again, with a bayonet. But we do not go round shooting people. Not even the SS.

    All the townsfolk were made to go to the camps and see just what they had on their conscience. The argument that they did not know.The stench of dead and burning human flesh cannot be disguised.
    Somewhere on this site I posted My Dear Friend Alan Westermans description of the camp........
    Sapper

    Shooting civilians? That isn't what I meant, I said I knew civilians were given "tours" of the camps where they were shown what happened and then told to bury the bodies and such. Those were of course civilians who lived near the camps, but what about those that lived far from them? I also asked how the treatment of soldiers taken in as prisoners had changed from before the discovery of the camps.

    Regarding the S.S., I apologize if it is not true, it is only what I've heard on this forum, perhaps I read it out of context but it was the only thing I had to go by when asking.
     

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