A conscientious objector hides in the fells to escape military service.

Discussion in 'Prewar' started by Deacs, Jul 20, 2014.

  1. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria.

    I found this from The West Cumberland Times of June 1916.

    Regarding a Percy Croysdale Clemenson who went and lived on the fells of Hellvelyn between Matterdale and Thilmere. To escape military service.


    Percy objector..jpg
     
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  2. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    This was just after the introduction and application of the Military Service Act, 1916. From the article it was clear he had been before the Glasgow local tribunal but had been turned down.

    My guess is that his objection was on intellectual grounds rather than religious belief. As a 'clerk' (office worker) he was obviously not in a reserved occupation.
     
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  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  4. Bernard85

    Bernard85 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    good day deacs.yesterday,08:58pm,re:what a conscientious objector do to avoid from signing up.they should have formed a regiment just for conchy;s.hard labour.clearing up bombed sites,unxploded bombs,and any other job that would help the war effort.regards bernard85 :icon_sleepy:
     
  5. RemeDesertRat

    RemeDesertRat Very Senior Member

    Interesting article, would be interesting to see the outcome of his arrest.
     
  6. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria.

    If i come across any more articles i will post it, but so far i haven't.

    I have also looked on ancestry and i am thinking he has given a false name ?
     
  7. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria.

    And then i have found this interesting.

    Name: Percy Croysdale Cleminson
    Birth Place: Bishop Auckland, Durham
    Residence: Edinburgh
    Death Date: 17 May 1917
    Death Place: Home
    Enlistment Place: Carlisle Rank:
    Private Regiment: The King's (Liverpool) Regiment Battalion: 19th Battalion Regimental Number: 59030
    Type of Casualty: Died Theatre of War: Home
    Comments:
    Formerly 25007, Border Regiment.


    Needs more digging i think.
     
  8. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria.

    CLEMINSON, P C




    Rank:

    Private

    Service No:

    59030

    Date of Death:

    17/05/1917

    Regiment/Service:

    The King's (Liverpool Regiment)



    19th Bn.

    Grave Reference:

    A. Sub. 2. 58.

    Cemetery:

    BISHOP AUCKLAND CEMETERY



    I wonder if it is the same guy.
     
  9. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    He will be your fellow. Perhaps someone with access to one of the websites with access to WW1 enlistment information they may be able to look up his details?
     
  10. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria.

    Joseph no service records for him on ancestry only his MIC, and that is only for The King's (Liverpool) Reg.

    30850_A000336-02091.jpg
     
  11. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    A seemingly sad and sorry tale, but it is always wisest, when starting from manifestly inaccurate information, to attempt to clarify rather than confuse.

    Percy Cleminson is said by the reporter to have "appealed" to the Glasgow Military Service Tribunal, which is manifest nonsense, as the MST had no appellate function, being a tribunal of the first instance. It is clear that Cleminson applied to the Glasgow MST for exemption as a conscientious objector, but was refused. He subsequently appealed against that refusal to the Glasgow Appeal Tribunal, but was again refused. He then sought from the Glasgow Appeal Tribunal leave to appeal to the Central Tribunal, but leave was refused.

    If his normal place of residence was Edinburgh, it is not clear why he applied to the Glasgow MST rather than the Edinburgh one, but there is nothing improper about it - it just shows there is probably more to the story than we know. What is clear is that he did not go "on the run" to "avoid signing up", as Deacs has confusingly headed the thread. Signing up is necessarily a voluntary act, and Cleminson did not need to take any special measures to avoid doing it. He just did not do it at any time from 1914. What Cleminson went on the run from was not signing up but compulsory enlistment. In going on the run, Cleminson was not entirely alone, but in the nature of things it was really feasible to keep up indefinitely the kind of life Cleminson was leading. Usually such COs were sooner or later arrested and brought before the Magistrates' Court and "handed over" to the military. That normally led to disobeying orders, court-martial an imprisonment.

    How, as seems to have happened, Cleminson decided to give in and accept compulsory enlistment is at present a mystery, although a few others are known to have done this.

    It would clearly be helpful for reference purposes to have the precise date of publication of the West Cumberland Times piece.
     
  12. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria.

    Is that title better ?

    I only posted the story because I thought it interesting that the chap had gone up into the fells of Cumbria to avoid military service.

    Next time I won't bother.

    Posted June 23 1916.
     
  13. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Deacs,

    Don't be discouraged, some people just have a way with words. There are ways of taking issue with posts which are about sharing and enlarging the body of knowledge we all benefit from and contribute to, rather than coming across like a headmaster correcting a naughty boy's latin prep in the 1950's. There's correctness and there's politeness and some of us don't know the difference.
     
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  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Probate record shows he died in Woolwich, Kent

    31874_223135-00518.jpg

    Birth details:
    England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Percy Croysdale Cleminson
    Name: Percy Croysdale Cleminson
    Registration Year: 1886
    Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
    Registration district: Auckland
    Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
    Inferred County: Durham
    Volume: 10a
    Page: 20

    1901 Census - looks as though his father has died by then - or overseas


    1901 England Census about Percy Cleminson
    Name: Percy Cleminson
    Age: 14
    Estimated birth year: abt 1887
    Relation to Head: Son
    Gender: Male
    Mother: Mary Cleminson
    Birth Place: Bishop Auckland, Durham, England
    Civil Parish: Bishop Auckland
    Ecclesiastical parish: Auckland St Andrew
    Town: Bishop Auckland
    County/Island: Durham
    Country: England
    Street address:

    Occupation:

    Condition as to marriage:

    Education:

    Employment status:

    View image
    Registration district: Auckland
    Sub-registration district: Bishop Auckland
    ED, institution, or vessel: 1
    Neighbors: View others on page
    Piece: 4643
    Folio: 11
    Page Number: 14
    Household schedule number: 71
    Household Members:
    Name Age
    Mary Cleminson 40
    Percy Cleminson 14
    Charlie Cleminson 11
    Doris Cleminson 4
    Frank Cleminson 1
    Lizzie Moore 17
    View
    Original
    Record

    View original image
     
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  15. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    Yes, indeed, the revised heading fits the incident very well, and thanks for the date of the cutting.

    With help from other contributors, we are led to conclude that on the Friday following the reported hearing Cleminson was "handed over" to the military, and at some point decided to give in, however reluctantly, and accept call-up.

    Even though his mother may have been a widow in 1901, she seems to have been able to afford a 17-year old girl as a live-in maid.

    Although, strictly, off-topic for WW2, the item has illustrated the forum's capacity to enable several members to tease out separate details of a human story, and it would be a pity if the exercise does not encourage you to make further contributions Most emphatically, your time has not been wasted.
     
  16. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Oh I do this all the time.
    See a topic that looks interesting post it (never validate it, unless it stands out as ridiculous ) then hope the excellent forums members shape up ,which they always do.
    Learn something new every day.
    The thread was started in pre war section and is on topic.Also the barracks is a haunt for posting " bo**ocks" if you like.

    Please note asterisks for Ron based on the Beeb editing out rude wordology in his posts.

    Any way all sorted now

    regards
    Clive
     
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  17. Bernard85

    Bernard85 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    good day deacs,m,yesterday.03:21am,#12.conscientious objecters,your post is interesting,keep posting.i am certain many service personelle did not like war,or having to kill or be killed,but they went,many did not return.R.I.P.nobody likes war.but somebody had to make the sacrifice,in time of need.it is a matter of opinion what we all think.so keep going,i will lookout for your post's regards bernard85
     
  18. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Hi Deacs, don't know where you found your original newspaper entry but going through the "britishnewspaperarchives" there are hints at two more papers covering the story in July 16. One hints at him being a hermit (sorry just re-read your 1st article that also states he was living like a hermit).

    I also looked at the Scottish Valuation Rolls from 1915 & 1920 and can't see Percy or any of his family based in Scotland (using the names provided by TD from the English Census).
     

    Attached Files:

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