9th SS Hohenstaufen

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Gerard, Aug 7, 2008.

  1. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

  2. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    Anything on there about the 'Arnhem' move?????
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    This what you are looking for?

    "On September 10, the order went out that the remnants of the Division, estimated at only 2,500 men or 20% of its original strength, were to be transferred to Germany for a complete refitting, handing over their weapons (including two batteries of field howitzers), vehicles and equipment to the sister division Frundsberg, which would stay at Arnhem and regroup. The men were on the point of leaving for the Reich by rail on September 17 when troops of the British 1st Airborne landed in the outskirts of Arnhem and near Nijmegen. This was part of Operation Market Garden, in which the British air landing at Arnhem took the unsuspecting Germans by surprise. It was intended to be the opening of a new offensive, which if successful, would cut all the German troops on the coast, at the V2 launching sites and the ports of Antwerp, Amsterdam and Rotterdam from their supplies from Germany. Further, it would have liberated northern Holland and by allowing the Allies to penetrate northern Germany would have shortened the war by months ......."

    BTW GH, very interesting thanks for putting it up.

  4. barkhorn45

    barkhorn45 Junior Member

    "In the firestorm of the last years of the war"the combat history of the 2nd SS panzerkorp by Wilhelm tieke.Is a must read on this matter.The 2nd SS panzerkorp consisted of the 9th hohenstaufen and the 10th frundsburg.published by the fedorowcz press.very detailed study especially about arnhem.the movie "a bridge to far"makes it appear that these two units were powerfull units.as a matter of fact they had been shattered by the fighting in normandy.the 9th had a strength of 3.000 men at the time and it and the 10th were enroute to germany to refit when market-garden found them in their favorable positions at the steart of the operation.
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Barkhorn -
    That supposed weakness of the two Pz Divs with only 5500 men between them has to be offset by the fact that any 5500 men with just a few tanks and artillery has to be able to countermand any effort by 10,000 paratroops armed with light weapons - makes it all the more reason to laud the 1st Para Div for holding out so long...that force of two below strength Panzers should have been able to wipe out the paras in a couple of days - Model - Bitterich and Student didn't do all that well considering they had the plans on the first night !
  6. Ivan1

    Ivan1 "Take this!!!"

    Tom: Rereading old threads a bit, that was exactly what I was going to post. No matter how weak these formations were, they are still in numerous advantage and most of all, had a number of tanks and armored vehicles with them. These were used widely during the battle. The paras had only some PIAT rifles, highly ineffective against Tiger's armor.

    COMMANDO Senior Member

    Well, the battle group of 9 SS was at Arnhem about 5000 strong - well armed - but they fought only on a small frontline (in Arnhem itself and east / Nord-East of Oosterbeek... Do not forget that there was also a 'Westgruppe' under command of General von Tettau which was mostly formed up from the SS Unterführerschule Arnhem, SS-Wacht Battalion 3 (Helle) and lots of other troops...
    Do not forget also that 9.SS got more and more troops under command from Germany/Holland after 17 September, so it were not just 'only' the about 5500 Hohenstaufen men reported...

    Estimations about the strenght at the end of the battle of Hohenstaufen Division is about... 13.594 ! And that is only Hohenstaufen....
    von Poop likes this.
  8. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Fallschirmjager -
    all the more reason to applaud 1st paras for holding out so long against vastly superior well armed forces...I don't think we give our chaps enough credit for their guts against greater odds ...it was the same for too long - Dunkirk - Tobruk - Sidi Rezigh - Gazala - Anzio - Cassino - Burma - it was a long list....and that is just the Army !
  9. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Well first of all no question about it the Allies had unquestionable bravery during the Market Garden operation, especially 1st Para for holding out so long with very little supplies.

    But I also feel that the Germans deserve credit for being able to formulate a coherant defense out of formations that were understrength and disorganised - if you disagree ask Sapper, he saw what happened at Falaise. And most of these formations at Arnhem were understrength and surprised by the Elite troops of the Allies. Its not like they knew at the start what was happening.

    I think people still buy into this myth that the Paras dropped stright onto a Full Strength SS panzer Corps and this is not the case. Granted as the days wore on the Paras got weaker and the Germans stronger but the fact remains that after France there was very little time for the Germans to regroup and the fact that they did so deserves credit too.

    And Tom, you are right when you say that not enough credit is given to the Allies for their efforts, I heartily agree.
  10. Ferahgo

    Ferahgo Senior Member

    The Hohenstaufen were under the control of Harzer and the Frundsburg div under Harmel. Both units were under General Bittich. The Hohenstaufen had been transferred to germany for refit which was completed by the time they had been called to Arnhem. Bittrich ordered Harzer to leave an armoured guard on the bridge to protect it. But Harzer failed in this and the North ramps were taken by 1st Para. Harmel was to take back the town from the British while Harzer was to take the drop zones and seal in the paratroopers. as the Bridge was taken Harmel hed to transfer most of his unit across the river by a ferry downriver at Pannerden. (The ferry had been 'overlooked' by Allied intelligence so Frost was unable to use it to attack the South ramps of the bridge-thhus resulting in the futile charge across the bridge)

    COMMANDO Senior Member

    The Hohenstaufen had been transferred to germany for refit which was completed by the time they had been called to Arnhem

    Sorry to say but that is incorrect... about 2500 men were still in the Arnhem area incl a lot of the material that had to be hand over to 10.SS... Only 1000 men had been send to the area of Siegen by then (most of them were send back within one or 2 days).
    There is also no direct order to leave an armoured guard at Arnhem bridge. As a matter of fact in the first orders given by Bittrich to 9.SS they were to send a RECCE to Nymegen and to form a bridgehead there and to RECCE to the west of Arnhem while the remainder of the 9.SS Division was to follow ( forming up at Velp). There is no word in Bittrichts orders to leave an armoured guard at Arnhem bridge.
    It was by later afternoon that 9.SS was also given the order to securere Arnhem bridge, but as 9.SS had no troops that could be moved forward that quickly so that when they advanced from Velp Frost's battlegroup had already taken the north end of the bridge. The reason was that by then it became known to Model that both ferry's had been sunk.

    As 10.SS was to move south towards Nymegen, it was decided by Model by late morning of the 18the of September that 10SS was to fight the Arnhem Bridge free while 9.SS was to move west towards Oosterbeek and LZ's.
    To cross the river 10.SS had two ferry paces, at Huissen and Pannerden. The one at Huissen had been sunk by the ferrymen when the allied landings started, so not of use, the one at Pannerden sunk because the Germans overloaded the ferry, so they used Brückengerät and smaller craft to put men and material across.
    The ferry at pannerden was not overlooked by the Allied planners but was to much to the east for the initial assault (and deep in enemy held terrain) so no use to 2nd Para.

Share This Page