"95% of Bomber Command were RAFVR"

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Roxy, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    I've read this on a couple of sites today and just wondered if anyone could provide coroboration. Or is it a number plucked out of thin air?

    Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve - Forces War Records

    wiki has exactly the same detail.

    I also remember reading somewhere (I can't remember where!) that the RAF was limited in size by Parliament and, as a consequence, new members (during the war) became RAFVR - or am I just making that bit up?:confused:

    Help!

    Roxy
     
  2. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Roxy,

    Air Ministry muddled thinking.

    RAFVR introduced in 1938 to denote volunteers as distinct from RAF ex regulars who had a reserve service commitment.

    Then on 3 September 1939,the A.M decided to put the service on a war footing and enter all recruits,either volunteers or conscripted into the category of RAFVR.

    Some felt that this differentiation from prewar regulars...professionals in some eyes who were categorised as RAF, drew a distinction between these regulars and those conscripted for the duration or as wartime entry regulars.(RAFVR)

    By June 1943,the AM decided for the reasons of service unity that there was no requirement for RAFVR officers to wear the VR badge.For other ranks who wore the badge, the practice was declared to be obsolete and allowed to wither on the vine.

    As regards the statistic,this can be accepted.As the war progressed the numbers of prewar regulars declined....by 1942 there was a distinct change in the RAF manpower types, as opposed to the immediate prewar RAF regular types on strength.Those types entering the RAF, (all as RAFVR,) increased the ratio of RAFVR to those RAF prewar regulars,who aircrew had been subject to heavy losses.

    So by 1945,there would be comparatively few prewar regular aircrew who had survived nearly 6 years of war.
     
    Roxy likes this.
  3. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    Thanks, Harry.

    That, kind of, makes sense.

    Roxy
     
  4. archivist

    archivist Well-Known Member

    Harry's explanation certainly does make sense. But I would like to know if an exception was made for career Officers? Were all Cranwell trained Officers RAF? Was there any type of snobbery/class distinction involved? Just curious, I am NOT trying to start off another Civil War amongst aircrew!
     
  5. Little Friend

    Little Friend Senior Member

    I too have heard and read about this. Bomber Command were mostly all volunteer's, made-up from Bank Clerk's to Bricklayer's, various different people from all walks of life. Heroes one and all !!!
     
  6. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Roxy,
    Are you referring to British crew only?
    Canadians made up one third of Bomber Command aircrew and I know there were at least 20,000 Australians so the 95% quote probably does not apply to the total force.
     
  7. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The RAF/RAFVR differential is what I have always used when searching the background of those who served along with those who became casualties.

    From the AM's edicts,the categories can be acknowledged as:

    RAFVR. Those in the Voluntary Reserve scheme set up in 1938.Then from 3 September 1939, those recruits entering the service from conscription and those who joined the service as regulars.

    RAF.Those who joined the service prior to 3 September 1939 as regulars.
     
  8. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    canuck,

    I'm not sure to whom the statistic was refering. If, as you say, BC was 1/3rd Canadians (I assume that you mean RCAF rather than Canadians in the RAF) then the statistic either refers to RAF or is wrong!

    My assertion that I'd read that those joining the Service after the start of the War joined the RAFVR was confirmed by Ross McNeill at RAF Commands.

    He has an excellent thread which explains the system significantly better than I ever could!

    RAF Manpower and Deferred Service

    Thanks again, folks!

    Roxy
     
  9. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Roxy,

    It was Canuck that raised the point that did it include RCAF? . Obviously it did not as the RAFVR category did not apply to the RCAF.

    As regards the breakdown of the nationality of those serving under RAF direction,I recollect seeing some statistics on the matter but these are not to hand.

    Off hand,not related to the present discussion, I remember seeing the statistic that the PAF was the fourth largest Allied air force in the world by the end of the war.

    Regards..H
     
  10. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    canuck,

    I'm not sure to whom the statistic was refering. If, as you say, BC was 1/3rd Canadians (I assume that you mean RCAF rather than Canadians in the RAF) then the statistic either refers to RAF or is wrong!

    My assertion that I'd read that those joining the Service after the start of the War joined the RAFVR was confirmed by Ross McNeill at RAF Commands.

    He has an excellent thread which explains the system significantly better than I ever could!

    RAF Manpower and Deferred Service



    Thanks again, folks!

    Roxy

    The one third total would include both RCAF personnel and Canadians serving in RAF units.
     
  11. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Roxy,

    Off hand,not related to the present discussion, I remember seeing the statistic that the PAF was the fourth largest Allied air force in the world by the end of the war.

    Regards.H

    This claim has always been put forward by the RAAF official website:

    In World War II, Australian aircrew fought in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East; over the North Atlantic, the Indian and Pacific Oceans and the Mediterranean; India, Burma, Malaya, Singapore, Thailand, China, the Netherland East Indies, New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, the Philippines and Borneo. They also fought over Australia, its territories, and its approaches.


    In late 1944, the RAAF peaked at over 182,000 personnel and 6,200 aircraft in 61 squadrons. In 1945, Australia had the fourth-largest air force in the world (after the USA, USSR and UK).
    Over 215,000 men and women served between 1939-45, and 9,870 RAAF personnel lost their lives. Over 55 per cent of these deaths occurred in the air war against Germany over Europe.


    Not quite sure what criteria is used for the claim however that would make three (RAAF, RCAF, PAF) vieing for fourth place.

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
  12. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Not quite sure what criteria is used for the claim however that would make three (RAAF, RCAF, PAF) vieing for fourth place.


    I must agree with you, Geoff. Just what is the criteria?

    The RCAF suffered almost 14,000 deaths in WWII. Of those some 9900 were in Bomber Command, either 6 Group or in RAF Squadrons. So, is it just a numbers thing?

    Regards,

    Dave
     
  13. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  14. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I must agree with you, Geoff. Just what is the criteria?

    The RCAF suffered almost 14,000 deaths in WWII. Of those some 9900 were in Bomber Command, either 6 Group or in RAF Squadrons. So, is it just a numbers thing?

    Regards,

    Dave

    Hi Dave,

    I feel it is nothing to do with the deaths sustained over the European theatre although bomber command Australians were 2% of the RAAF yet suffered over 20% of the RAAF's deaths.

    Possibly to do with numbers of squadrons (61) and aircraft (6,200) only.

    Somebody might be able to give a definitive response.

    Whatever the answer, Britain's Commonwealth provided much needed manpower in the air in all theatres.

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
  15. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  16. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Found this on the Canada at war website.

    WWII: RCAF - Canada at War

    Force # [​IMG] RCAF - Peak Strength 215,200
    # of Squadrons 78 -
    Overseas 35 -
    Home 43 Fighter Squadrons Overseas 12

    The RCAF peace time establishment called for a total of twenty-three squadrons, of which eight of the eleven permanent squadrons had been formed on the eve of war. In the first month of World War II it was found that only fifteen squadrons could be brought up to strength and mobilized - twelve for home defence and three for overseas service. For aircraft there were 20 different types totaling 230 aircraft, over half were training or transport aircraft, and only nineteen (19) Hurricanes and and ten (10) Fairey Battle light bombers could be considered front line aircraft. From this small nucleus both in personal and equipment the RCAF expanded to become the fourth largest allied air force.

    - Night
    3 - Day
    8 - Intruder
    1 Bomber Squadrons Overseas
    14
    The wartime RCAF consisted of three main parts, two of which were in Canada. The British Commonwealth Air Training Plan and the other the Home War Establishment - which was to deploy thirty-seven squadrons for coastal defence, protection of shipping, air defence and other duties in the western hemisphere. The third with its headquarters in London, England the Overseas War Establishment. At the end of the war it had forty-eight squadrons serving with the Royal Air Force in Western Europe, the Mediterranean and the Far East.
    On the first of January 1944 the RCAF reached its peak wartime strength of 215,200 all ranks (including 15,153) women, 104,000 were in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, 64,928 were serving at home and 46,272 were serving overseas. There were 78 squadrons in service: 35 overseas, 43 at home (of which six had been ordered overseas).



    Looks like 4th to me so I might ask the question of the RAAF website.


    Cheers

    Geoff
     

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