93rd Anti-tank Regiment, RASC, Army Education Corps

So I discovered that he was in R battery in F troop for the 93rds.
He can't remember much about the Officers in charge, though he remembers the Battery Major was Kerr

I asked him again about his injury and he reckoned it was might be somewhere near Foggia or Lanciano? But he can't remember much more than that. How can I find out more about where this might have happened? Would this be in his service record? Were medical records held for soldiers and are they easily accessible?

Laura

 

Laura

Here is a link that will get you started on obtaining service records. I believe you can request details of a soldiers medical history when you apply for their general service record but you must state this clearly. I am sure others can advise further on this. I've only just sent off my request but perhaps unusually, I already have my fathers full WW2 medical history which is set out in a pension application document from the late 1950s. There are references to the RASC and ACCR records office in Hastings which I assume was therefore the source of the bulk of the detailed Army information.

The medical information recorded is very detailed with dates of admission and discharge from each medical establishment, casualty clearing station or hospital along with diagnosis and treatment recorded day to day. Remarkably, some of these entries correspond exactly with entries in his unit diaries recording men going on or off strength (TOS & SOS to hospital etc) and in one or two instances he is actually named.

On the assumption that this level of detail was not unusual, I would have though it quite likely that your Grandfathers medical / service record could lead you to a unit diary entry describing the incident itself.


http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html

Be sure to follow the requirements carefully and include any requested documentation. If you have service number and dob so much the better. I spoke to the records office in Glasgow a few days ago and they try and prioritise requests from ww2 veterans and widows. I could not draw them on a precise timescale but around 3 months sounds likely.

 

Laura

I have not forgotten my offer to post a photo.

I am out in Cassino running a battlefield study but will be back on 14 May 13.

Regards

F

 

Graham, thanks for the info and the link. My grandfather is alive, so he will have to apply, but I'd like to help him all I can. On the form, for the section on what information we require, what should I write? I'd like any and all information that might ascertain the exact movements of his regiments. He has some vague dates, and doing very well for his age (celebrating his 90th next month) but it would be lovely to fill in some of the gaps.

I'm not sure what I needs to write to get that information though. Any help and direction would be great thanks.

Frank, have a great trip! Safe travels and I can't wait to see the photo when you get back!
Laura

 

Laura.

I have the photo. Any idea how to attach it?

Regards

FdeP

 

I've been searching for war diaries for Laura and found them all up until the HQ stuff. Having looked online I've narrowed the 56 Area HQ files down to the following - I am correct in thinking there is no way of telling which one he was with?


WO 170/712 56 Area: G. 1944 Mar.- Dec.
WO 170/713 56 Area: A.Q. 1944 Jan.- Dec.
WO 170/714 56 Area: A.D.S.T. 1944 Feb.- Dec.
WO 170/4534 56 Area: G 1945 Jan.-Dec.
WO 170/4535 56 Area: A.Q. 1945 Jan.-July
WO 170/4536 56 Area: A.Q. 1945 Aug.-Dec.
WO 170/4537 56 Area: S.T. 1945 Jan.-Dec.


It's even harder with HQ 3 District as there are 30 war different war diaries covering 1944 to 1946.

 

Laura - Here are the other 30 possibilities - They are all in Italy so it's a case of asking him if any ring a bell I'm afraid. Click on each link for a little more detail.


WO 170/681 3 District: G. 1944 Jan.- Dec.
WO 170/682 3 District: A. 1944 Jan.- Dec.
WO 170/683 3 District: Q. 1944 Jan.- Apr., June, Oct.- Dec.
WO 170/684 3 District: C.S.O. 1944 Jan.- Dec.
WO 170/685 3 District: S.T. 1944 Jan.- Dec.
WO 170/686 3 District: D.D.O.S. 1944 Jan.- Mar., June - Aug., Dec
WO 170/687 3 District: D.D.M.E. 1944 Jan.- Dec.
WO 170/688 3 District: A.D. Claims and Hgs. 1944 July, Aug.
WO 170/689 3 District: D.D. Labour 1944 Jan.- Dec.
WO 170/690 3 District: Camp Command 1944 Jan.- Dec.
WO 170/691 3 District: D.A.D.V. and R.S. 1944 Oct.- Dec.
WO 170/4053 Headquarters (HQ) 3 District 1944 Apr;- Dec.
WO 170/4516 3 District: G 1945 Jan.-Dec.
WO 170/4517 3 District: A 1945 Jan.-Oct.
WO 170/4518 3 District: Q 1945 Jan.-July, Oct.-Dec.
WO 170/4519 3 District: C.E. 1945 Jan.-Dec.
WO 170/4520 3 District: C.S.O. 1945 Jan.-Dec.
WO 170/4521 3 District: S.T. 1945 Jan.-Dec.
WO 170/4522 3 District: D.D.M.E. 1945 Jan.-Dec.
WO 170/4523 3 District: D.D.O.S. 1945 Jan.-Dec.
WO 170/4524 3 District: D.A.D.V. and R.S. 1945 Jan., May-Nov.
WO 170/4525 3 District: D.D. Labour 1945 Jan.-Dec.
WO 170/4526 3 District: Camp Command 1945 Jan.-Aug.
WO 170/7802 Headquarters 3 District: G. 1946 Jan.- June
WO 170/7803 Headquarters 3 District: Q. 1946 Jan.- June
WO 170/7804 Headquarters 3 District: C.S.O. 1946 Jan.- June
WO 170/7805 Headquarters 3 District: S.T. 1946 Jan.- June
WO 170/7806 Headquarters 3 District: A.D.O.S. 1946 Jan.- June
WO 170/7807 Headquarters 3 District: Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME) 1946 Jan.- June
WO 170/7808 Headquarters 3 District: Labour 1946 Jan.- June

 

Laura
Apologies for the delay on answering your post but it may have been fortuitous. My fathers Service record arrived today, just 18 days after posting.
Taking advise from earlier postings on this site (thanks in particular to Ron Goldstein)….

In Part 3 – Information Requested. I wrote.

Details of units served in plus general army records for TA (1937 – 39) and RASC 1939 – 46 including medical records if available. Also details of brief call up to Z Reserve for Korea? Suez? 1950s. Served in North Africa Nov 42 – Sicily – Italy to Dec 45.
Full Records if available please.

The paperwork has gone to my mother’s address so I have yet to be able to read it in detail but is, apparently, spread over about 20 sheets and like some of the examples posted on this site is quite detailed and is going to need some careful reading and ‘interpretation’ to fully understand and dovetail into my master timeline. I am sure I’ll be posting questions about this in a couple of weeks.

How it was turned round so quick, I don’t know but I was able to include my father’s Army Number and his date of birth which I know is correct and appears on other army paperwork we already have. (some men were ‘economical’ with this particular bit of information on joining up and it may contribute to difficulties in finding records after all these years).

I was also able to include a copy of part of his demob paperwork.

Regarding the medical records. The letter received today states that these were sent elsewhere as part of an enquiry in 1957 and that they must now be 'deemed' to have been destroyed. The medical details I already have (dated 1957), must, then, have been compiled from those original Army records and if a soldier has not made any post war medical enquiries, may well be still available today. It would be interesting to find out if any other veterans have been able to obtain their detail WW2 medical records recently.

Regarding the information, the service record won't give details of where a particular unit was, or what it was doing. You will still have to research that separately using the diaries held at the National Archives at Kew or perhaps at one of the specialist regimental museums. In the case of the Royal Artillery, their museum at Woolwich holds copies of many battery and regimental diaries. I am sure someone more knowledgeable can help and of course, people are already posting links to documents found using the Discovery search engine on line at Kew.

Re the Education thread. Since last posting, I’ve also been back to Kew and had another look at the RASC Training Depot diary. Unfortunately even my spare, spare camera batteries expired part way through this document but I was able to do a more thorough ‘scan’ read of it. In the end I couldn’t find any references to its location other than Nola or Castellammare. Also, I could not find any reference to basic literacy courses with everything listed being more Officer, NCO, technical trades or clerks level so it looks as if the literacy classes that your Grandfather recalls were indeed being held elsewhere in Naples.

Wish your grandfather a happy birthday!

 

Hi Drew 5233
Can you explain briefly what exactly these Districts and Areas mean and what they define and if any maps are likely to exist? I have seen reference to these in various unit diaries.
Graham

 

Hutt
Congratulations on receiving your fathers records so quickly. Lucky man
Post away if you have any queries and I am pleased that it looks like you have received them all, not just a summary as some members get.

Lesley

 

Lesley
I think we have been extremely lucky! From what my mother has read out over the phone already there is a wealth of info in them but my main hope is that I can get a full understanding of what he was doing up to mid 1942 while still in the UK and an accurate date for the transition between 2 units around the time of the invasions of Sicily / Italy in summer 43.

Graham

 

Hi all, hope you had a good weekend
My gramps has had a look at the first set of 56 Area codes and he doesn't know which the Army Education corps was linked with, but he did know a little about 'G Branch', there was a girl, whose father was a General somewhere, he knew who was possibly a spy and used to disappear into the Balkans now and again apparently, but he didn't know exactly what she was up to!

Thanks for the information for the service record that's exactly what I needed! I'll get onto that as soon as possible. Maybe that might narrow down our search on these RASC diaries.
And thanks so much for that research, on the Training courses. It's so great to have knowledgeable people working on this! I'm really grateful!

Laura

 

Laura,

Just returned from holiday and thought I would add a few thoughts to guide you (or confuse you).

Area and Sub Area Headquarters are Line of Communication administrative headquarters. Lines of Communication run from the ports and base areas up to the combat zone. I think District Headquarters are the immediate post war replacements for Areas.

There are standard War Establishment Tables for Areas and these list the personnel that the War Office will provide. The tables are modified in theatre in two ways. First the theatre can modify the establishment and make a new table of its own using its own resources. In NW Europe these were prefixed XIV. There will be a similar set of tables for the Mediterranean. Various services can have increments added to the basic establishment and education will be one of these. The basic tables can be found in the Trux section of this forum under Headquarters/Line of Communication Headquarters.

Drew lists some War Diaries.
'G' is the General Staff section of the headquarters. This is the executive section and has only a couple of RASC clerks.
'A' and 'Q' is the Department of the Adjutant General and Quartermaster General. 'A' deals with personnel and 'Q' with things. This is larger and has some 15 RASC Clerks.
'S' and 'T' is Supply and Transport and has some 15 RASC clerks.
Camp Commandant is the housekeeping section.

Other services, signals, medical, ordnance etc have their own specialist clerks.

Does this make any sense at all?

Mike.

 

From your far superior knowledge of these documents, do you think this one might be relevant to our search?

ITALY ALLIED FORCE HEADQUARTERS
1944 Jan., Feb., Sept.WO 170/28
Army Educational Corps



According to my grandfather's dates, he didn't join the Army Education Corps until Sept/October 1944, but I can't seem to find a similar document with a later date (and there's always the chance that his dates aren't entirely accurate)

 

Laura,

I can not really say if the reference will be useful. Allied HQ Italy was vast and the education establishment minute.

I have found the following for 21 Army Group in NW Europe and Italy would be similar. Army Group, Army and Corps Headquarters have the same numbers but differing ranks. Divisions did not receive education officers until September 1944. The big increase in Education came when the fighting ended.


At Army Group level. This for a force of a million men
Colonel, Chief Education Officer
Staff Officer 3rd Grade.
2 X clerk RASC including
serjeant
private

At Army level.
Staff Officer (Education) 1st Grade
Staff Officer (Education) 3rd Grade
2 X clerk RASC

At Corps level.
Staff Officer (Education) 2nd Grade
Subaltern
2 X Clerk RASC


At Division level. I would expect an Area HQ to be the same.
In September 1944 the following were provided for each division.
Staff officer (Education) 3rd Grade.
clerk RASC
Plus a batman/driver and 15cwt truck.
These were expected to assist the intelligence section.

In May 1945 the following were included but were not to be implemented without further instruction from the War Office. This is the immediate post war organisation when the fighting was over, units were engaged on occupation duties and personnel were preparing for demobilisation.
Staff Officer, Education, 3rd Grade
Education Officer (may be Subaltern)
4 X serjeant instructor AEC
corporal clerk RASC
3 X clerk RASC
2 X batman
batman driver
1 X Car 2 seater, 4 X 2, Light Utility
1 X Car 4 seater, 4 X 4

The divisional establishment looks promising. It shows that education officers and RASC clerks were introduced more widely in September 1944 and that there was a great expansion after May 1945 (including a corporal clerk RASC).

Mike

 

Laura,

Doing well today.

I find that as I supposed the Districts were post war organisations. In March 1945 Italy was divided into three Districts with No 3 District covering all of the south plus Sicily. Headquarters 3 District was Naples. The port of Naples remained under Allied administration until December 1945. This was largely for the British Army as the US Army controlled No 2 District in the North West and used the port of Leghorn.

Mike

 

Mike, you really are a wealth of information. That stuff is so helpful. And really interesting.

Do you know why they introduced the education corps in September 44? Was there any reason for starting that up at that point in time? If my granddad's dates are correct he might have been there for the starting up of the army corps in sept 44.

As for the clerk and personnel numbers, wow. That's so detailed. I know he started as a clerk grade 3 but very soon after he was promoted to corporal in charge of admin. At some point later he became sergeant but there's no date for that. I wonder though if that might have come when the extra posts were introduced in May 45. That's purely my speculation though.

Thanks so much for all your efforts!
Laura

 

Laura,

You ask good questions. I struggle to find the good answers to them.

During the war there was a great concern with all social issues. It is difficult now to comprehend the time when education was basic unless you paid for it, health care was almost non existent unless you paid for it, social housing was very limited indeed and there was no National Insurance. The wartime government was all party and much thought was given to improving matters in the post war world. The new Education Act was passed in May 1944 and created the post of Minister of Education with considerable powers. Education had previously been largely in the hands of several hundred local authorities, some very small.

It was decided that personnel in the armed forces should be made aware of all the planned changes, and be kept up to date with home affairs. The first tasks of the Education Corps was to provide news and information, hold discussion groups and provide opportunities for study. This latter consisted mainly of providing books. Major centres had libraries, there were mobile libraries and units were given cases of paperback books.

The Administrative History, 21 Army Group reports that even the meagre allocation of education staff could not always be provided while hostilities continued.

I suppose the answer is that by 1944 there was a growing awareness that the war must soon end, that the troops would become civilians and that they should be aware of the planned social and political developments. September 1944 was probably as soon after the May Education Act as one could begin to organise things. Much more could be done when the fighting ended.

Mike

 

Hi, for interest, on the 31st May 1945, the diary of the 251 BPSS records the following

Welder attached from 310 B.P.S.S. for barrel repairs returned to Unit as all barrels completed. Diesel locos again out of commission for lack of spares - shunting by steam loco - very dangerous. AEC Lecturer gave talk on "US Foreign Policy".

I wonder if it predicted the cold war?

 

Hutt,

Many thought it but no one dared say it, except Patton and he would probably have been sacked if he was not killed in an accident first.

Mike