8th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment 21st May 1940

Discussion in '1940' started by Lake Geneva Brummie, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    You mean Rich Payne ;)
     
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  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  3. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

  4. Having, found some old correspondence to my father from a RWR soldier who survived Calonne

    it suggests that there were only four other officers in Baker’s counter-attack (Strawson, Potts, Hewitt and Batten) other than Baker himself. While I accept that this was an horrendously confusing situation it does suggest that 2nd Lt. Thomas was not part of the country-attack as I and family members had originally believed. Furthermore, the posts in this thread seems to suggest that he was undertaking TCP duties elsewhere with 2nd Division as early as 12th May. The period 12th May to 19th May is therefore crucial in understanding what happened


    I haven’t as yet obtained the service record but wondered what your views are as regards it’s usefulness in helping me fill in the period 12th May to 19th May.
     
  5. Sorry!
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I have the 2 Div General Staff war diary, I think, I'll try and find sometime to check it.
     

  7. Drew,

    You’re a star - that would be brilliant!
     
  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    It could mean a lot depending on what they say - he may have transferred from Military Police and therefore have experience of controlling traffic, until his records are seen that question cannot be answered.
    He may also have had experience prior to joining up that would enable him to have specific skills - until all these avenues are explored ............................................ You need as many pieces of the jigsaw as possible to enable you to see as much of the picture as possible and then fill in the gaps

    TD

    Added

    What was his job prior to joining up ???
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Nothing jumping out I'm afraid. There's some mention of TCP's being sent out after the Div Cavalry around the 10th/11th May but nothing to link to your chap.
     
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  10. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Drew, any chance of seeing that mention of him being seconded to 2 Div ? Is it from the officer returns ? Any clues from other officers ?

    It occurs to me that a large part of Traffic Control after 10th May was not simply 'BEF Up' (and all too soon back) but also keeping roads clear of refugee traffic (the 2 Div Provost diary refers to this). This was also combined with looking out for the much-feared Fifth Columnists - the diary refers to spies being executed. The investigation and exposure of fifth columnists, certainly during the phoney war period had been an intelligence function. Could there have been a need for officers with language skills in this rôle ?

    I don't have any officer returns for 2 Div Provost. Maybe 2 Div Int Section (WO167/204) might be worth a butcher's too.
     
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  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I'll take a pic of the page and send it to you via my mobile.

    I checked the Int diary-Nothing of note. It's beginning to annoy me now as officers are usually easy to follow.
     
  12. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Andy, I've had a squint at that handwriting...I don't think that it says TCP duty with 2 Div - It says TCP duty with 2RW - 2nd Royal Warwicks in 144 Brigade ? Worth a look on their returns perhaps ?
     
  13. Enormous thanks again to everybody who has been looking at this. Some new information I have obtained from the RWR Museum states that Harold joined up with the 8 Bn B Division on 14th April 1940. He had been at 1st Infantry Base Depot (Le Mans?) prior to that for an unknown period. They take the view that as he is listed as a casualty on 21st May that was a result of actions that day (presumably either B Division on the Escault or Col Baker’s counter-attack).
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Unfortunately I've never heard of a B Division, not in France anyway.
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Couldn't see a mention of him in the 2 Warwicks diary. There is no proper field return in it.
     
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  16. Sorry, I am being an ‘idiot’ - B Company!!!!
     
  17. I wonder if anybody can give me any observations or comments about the following I have received from CWGC:

    “2/Lt Thomas's date of death was provided to us by the War Office after the war. We have no details of where his body was found as he was buried in Calonne Communal Cemetery during the war by the French authorities. His grave was first registered by No.89 Grave Concentration Unit in May 1945 and this information would have been forwarded to the family by the War Office soon after. In 1948, we wrote to the family to request a personal inscription for the headstone.”

    Q. Does anybody know how helpful it would be to track down the diaries of 89 GCU?

    I am assuming that this was a marked grave when it was discovered by 89 GCU. This poses a number of questions:

    Was the date of death, 19/05/40 written on the grave marker? Or in the absence of any witnesses to his death, was 19/05/40 arrived at, because it was the earliest he was known to be in the Calonne area?

    If it wasn’t a marked grave did 89 CGU exhume, identify (somehow) and rebury the remains?
     
  18. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I would say almost certainly a marked grave originally. There were in general no exhumations except for re-burial elsewhere. There may be routes of enquiry via the local authorities in Belgium. Depending on where and when, there were sometimes quite detailed post-mortem reports by the local doctor or a magistrate.

    There may have been witnesses to events on the day of his death or 19th May could simply be the latest date that he was known to be alive (often there is a bracketed period, but not always). With Other Ranks, date of last pay parade is often used; I'm not sure how that is with officers.

    Sometimes, although GRUs did their best, they did sometimes jump to conclusions. Unfortunately, we have a man here who has been detached from his unit and who seems to have disappeared from the records.

    Calonne is still quite small, an enquiry via the commune or the church might bring something to light.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
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  19. Rich,

    Many thanks for this. Further enquiries to the CWGC have revealed that he did indeed have a marked grave with the date of death as 21/05/40! However, while this was reported as the date of death by the GCU “... this was then adjusted by information held by the War Office.”

    Any idea why the War Office would have done this?

    Reading the War Diary for 8 Bn for 19/21 May it seems to me, that his death, ostensibly on 21st May, is consistent with the fierce fighting that occurred that day. Casualties are reported on 19th May as 8 Bn moved to Calonne but no deaths are reported. My impression is that the new CO of 8 Bn took an inventory of the dead and missing on the evening of 21/05/40 which is when 2nd Lt.Thomas is mentioned.
     

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