88th Heavy Anti Aircraft Regiment Royal Artillery

Hi,

I have copies of all the BEF Artillery War Diaries for units in France during 1940 and the 82nd and 88th HAA Regiments didn't go to France. Whats the source of your info regarding the battery and regiment he joined on the 17th May 1940?

Cheers
Andy

 

Thanks for the prompt replies.
All the info on regiments and dates comes from his MOD War Record (Statement of Service and his "Service and Casualty" Forms). But we did talk a lot about his war years and he (and other members of the family) recalled the stories of his journey to Norway, without landing, and then escaping from France. Other stories include his time defending Gloucester, his North African adventures and his time in Italy.
The records say:
2/9/1939 Mobilised (he had been in the 10th AA Militia from July 1939, and 210 AA Training Unit )
14/11/1939 Posted into Unit - Gunner - 279 Battery 87th AA
18/4/1940 Posted into Unit - Gunner - 256 Battery 82nd AA
30/4/1940 Qualified as Driver - 256 Battery 82nd AA
17/5/1940 Posted into Unit - Gunner - 281 Battery 88th Heavy AA
24/2/1941 Posted into Unit - Gunner 189 Battery 67th HAA
22/4/1941 Posted back to unit - Gunner 281 Battery 88th HAA
6/10/1944 Transferred - Trooper VM RAC X(4).

So a mystery to reconcile?

Andy - I'm guessing I may need to talk to you about funding some diary records?
Again - any help would be gratefully received.
Rob

 

Fychan 1

It's quite possible that 281 never reached France, as I know that 282, also part of 88HAA, did not: I'm guessing (always a bad thing to do with research!) but it's not unlikely that 281, as part of 88, would probably have been deployed similarly. The reason I say this is that the battery diary for 282 shows that on 25/26 May 1940 the battery assembled and departed from Aldershot for Southampton for embarkation, assumed to be for France, after a period of build up. The developing situation in France and the retreat to Dunkirk, however, seems to have led to the decision not to progress, as the diary shows that they were back in Aldershot on 27/28 May, prior to redeployment around London. Letters home give an indication of the understandable confusion experienced by the troops.

 

88 HAA never went to France as far as I'm aware - They are listed in the WO 167 war diaries series at Kew. They aren't shown as deploying overseas unitil after the 1940 France campaign in Arndales 'Years of Defeat' or the website below

http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/haa/page51.html

If he went to France in 1940 it wasn't with 88 HAA.

Cheers
Andy

 

Thanks HAARA and Andy.
I have to accept your evidence that 281 didn't go to France - though I may keep the "memories" in the back pocket should something come to light in the future which confirms the stories I was told. Of course stories can be over cooked but there remains a grain of truth somewhere amongst it all - at least I hope so!.

Thanks for your help.

I guess I need to start some research of my own and will keep you up to date with anything I find.
Best wishes
Rob

 

Rob - Spend £30 on a copy of his service records. They will tell you where he was, when he was there and who he was there with.

 

Hi just in case you need it

https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records

David

 

Attached is the 88th HAA diary pages for May and June 1940. My reading of these is that the regiment, which had been part of 26th AA Brigade defending London was ordered to prepare and go to France but that the deteriorating situation in the last days of May rendered that pointless. They were then put back into the AA defence of London but were again called to go overseas and you can see that they got as far as embarking again, possibly for France.
My guess is that your fathers recollections, while broadly correct, had become slightly 'lost in translation' and if he was indeed with 281 Battery, then it is unlikely he actually got to France as part of the BEF. As HAARA says, things at this time were very confused and these 2 months worth of Regiment diaries clearly show this!
On DSC06161.jpg you can see your fathers posting in recorded on the 17th along with 22 other men from 256 AA Bty.

 

Thanks for posting this Graham, as it’s one of the War Diaries that was on my list for a visit to National Archives - so you've saved me long journey! It makes interesting reading, and I was interested in the issue of clothing prior to the first mobilisation to Southampton, especially the “Vests, woollen, on the scale of two per each…” (p3, telegram of 11 May 1940). A letter home about this, and indicating the state of confusion at the time, by one of the sergeants of 282/88, dated 13 May, writes:

“Everything is very vague, but I can tell you just a little more news. The advance guard leaves tomorrow for Aldershot, and the rest of us follow on on Thursday – or at least that is how it stands at the moment, and I suppose that is all liable to alteration – when and where we go from there we have no idea. I have, however, an idea that we shall be going north somewhere, as we are being issued with two winter weight vests. I can’t quite understand it. It may be Iceland or north of Scotland. One can never tell. One thing I feel sure of it’s not Norway.”

The dates here correlate, quite naturally, with the diary of 282, and the fact that having arrived in Southampton, they were then returned to Aldershot on 27 May. Whilst commenced on 19 May, the night of 26 May was the first major evacuation from Dunkirk. The 27th was also the day that Churchill in War Cabinet meetings refused to enter negotiations alongside the French with the Germans, saying,
“Even if we are beaten we should be no worse off than we should be if we are now to abandon the struggle. Let us therefore avoid being dragged down the slippery slope with France.”
It was also the day that Belgium capitulated. Not surprising that 88HAA did not embark!

There is also the second embarkation order of early June, this being after the French government had evacuated Paris and moved south, and were requesting more British support. Churchill was tempted as he was concerned about the French fleet being absorbed into the German navy. A second BEF was considered. That this would be a disaster was realised on 13 June after Alan Brooke’s meeting with French officials in France. All troop movements to France were cancelled immediately, and those troops still in France ordered to withdraw immediately, with some 190,000, leaving through St Nazaire over the next few days. It was during this operation that RMS Lancastria was sunk by the Luftwaffe, with the loss of possibly as many as 4,000 lives. It is, again, understandable that 88HAA were one again returned to Aldershot.

Slightly off topic, but to add a bit of ‘colour’ to 88HAA, here is a photo of 282/88 at Hurlingham Polo Ground, during a ‘yellow alert’, late September 1939.

 

Hi HAARA

A big apology for never following up on my post back in October 13. As you can probably guess, I did get round to copying the diary of the 88th HAA and I've had it since April 14....Ooops!

You post shows how remarkable it is after all these years to be able to tie so much of this information together, both between diaries and as you point out, with some of the bigger strategic issues that were going on at the time.

I hope Fychan 1 is not too disappointed that we seem to have discounted his father story of going to France (at least with 281 Bty) but I have no doubt he was in this regiment (and that Bty) and must have been in the sections that were sent onto Plymouth as his story about being disembarked into Lifeboats off the Boom can be seen recounted in DSC06180.jpg. You will also find references to Gloucester later in the whole Regiment diary.

Anyway, I would be very happy to let you have the remainder covering August 39 through to May 41. Drop me a line. That offer extends to Fychan 1.

Thanks also for the photo at Hurlingham, this AA site appears in many 1st AA Division (and its Brigades) diaries and was one that was not a million miles from my fathers home in Shepherds Bush.

Graham

 

Hi Graham and Rob,
Interesting reading the diary of 88 for June, as it seems that at least part of the Regiment embarked for the second BEF I mentioned above, with vehicles (and therefore drivers?) on the SS Clan McBean, (and other ships, see supporting annexes for June) and arrived and tied up in Brest, and so 'visited' France. Whilst it says no troops disembarked, it looks possible that they took on some Sherwood Foresters before returning (11-17 June).

Thanks for the offer of the remainder of the diary, which would be great thank you! I'll be in touch.

 

Hutt
Thank you so much for sharing the records - they are fantastic and with, albeit a quick read through, they do align with the some of the account my father told me if not all of it. For example the text within image DSC06180 records what happened on 14th June.
14/6/40 - Train arrived Plymouth Docks 0830 hours.
Detachment embarked on S.S. El Kantara. Ship left the quay at 1500 hours and anchored at entrance to Plymouth Harbour at 15:30 hours
at 1940 hours Officers advised all personnel were being disembarked.
88th personnel left ship by tender at 2300 hours and marched to Plymouth station.

The story I had was they were on a French ship which would not enter Plymouth. So they were taken ashore by lifeboats and marched through Plymouth which was deserted.

I've checked and S.S El Kantara was indeed a French vessel, and the record is so close that this must be what happened. So they were lined up to go to France but only got as far as the anchorage off Plymouth. Now its a case of looking whether I had mixed up the situation with his activities in Norway rather than France.

I'm pleased to see that what happened next fits with my understanding - as the posting of 281/88th to Gloucester was to what my father referred to as Deans Farm and I see that a Dean Farm is where part of 281 was positioned.

Thanks also to Andy and David for pointing to the Service Records - I already have them and have spent some time studying them and other sources to get a better understanding of his deployment before I put my questions to you all.

Finally - Can I again thank you all for your great help and provision of advice and information. I realise that you have all put in hours of work on this and if there is more info available or routes to obtain it, on the 88th, or on the other regiments my father served in (see my earlier note) I would be very happy to contribute. Please let me know.

Best wishes
Rob

 

Addition - sorry its Birthday time in our family - I started the response and then had to leave half way through for a celebratory meal - so only now finished my message - and on sending then found your other earlier responses today.
Will be in touch !!.
Rob

 

Hello, I am introducing myself today as a new member. I have been trying to piece together my father's war story and am almost there.He very sadly passed away a few months ago and I never got to ask all the questions I wanted to. Whilst he has told me some stories of his time in the army there are some missing parts. For instance I think he ended up in Germany after the war, but he never mentioned this.
He was with the 88th AA Regiment enlisting in January 1941 and served in The Desert, Sicily and Italy. They were placed in suspended animation in Sept 1944. He was transferred to Yorks Hussars, which I think may have just been a holding regiment, his records state: Draft RLGBG (whatever that means). Then joined 53RHU and finally The Inns of Court Regiment in March 1946 which is where I think he was in Germany.
I would be most grateful if anyone can help as I would like to complete his story.
Thanks
bman

 

Hi and welcome to the forum bman, good luck with your research



David

 

Hello and welcome to the forum

Lesley

 

I have the diary for 88th HAA from August 39 to end of May 41. PM me if you would like a copy.

 

Hello and welcome

 

Can help with locations for 1946

53 Reinforcement Holding Unit part of 105 Reinforcement Group – HQ Ripon Barracks formally Bulow Kaserne Bielefeld – used for retraining personnel

22 Feb 46 – Inns of Court Regiment (Devil’s Own) from 29th Armoured Brigade of 11th Armoured Division – to 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division – Fallingbostel
2 May 46 – to 5th Infantry Division – Dunderstadt east of Göttingen – to Wolfenbüttel by 1 Jan 47 – to UK May 47

Best of luck with your research