85th Anti Tank Regiment RA

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by Ravrick, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. Ravrick

    Ravrick Senior Member

    Hi,
    I am researching BSM Patrick Clarke who served with the 85th Anti Tank Regt RA and was taken prisoner at Singapore on the 15th Feb 1942, can anybody let me know what and where the 85th were before they arrived at Singapore?

    Cheers,
    Rick
     
  2. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

    85 Anti-Tank Regiment RA(TA)
    Locations
    Sept 41 Formed from 20, 63, 68 & 70 A/Tk
    Sept 41 Home Forces UK
    Nov 41 Malaya Command Malaya
    Feb 42 Captured

    From
    RA 1939-45 85 A/Tk Rgt
    Looking around the site you can find further information on the units the 85th was formed from.

    Cheers Mark
     
  3. Enigma1003

    Enigma1003 Member

    Hi Rick,
    As Mark shows, depends which battery.

    If of any use though, I know he was on the Overland party to Burma railroad on 11/10/1942.
    (P.Clarke, The Drillhouse, Holywell, Flint ?)

    Mike

    Going by the Flint address, I would think he was originally with the 70th Anti Tank at Mold.
    However, there is confusion here, as the 70th states their batteries were 277 - 280, and yet the 85th A/T states that battery 281 came from Mold ?????
     
  4. Ravrick

    Ravrick Senior Member

    Hi, many thanks, that,s the man, it only states 85th AT on his POW card, however he joined the RA in 1921 and died in 1976 so I will apply for his service papers which should throw up some more information.
    Cheers,
    Rick
     
  5. Beverly

    Beverly Member

    Hello
    I am researching William Garton Faulkner (Jr), Gunner, in the 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Field Artillery. I know his Regimental Number was 1033539, and the Theatre of War was Malaya. He was killed in Thailand 13 JUL 1943 and is buried at Kanchanaburi War Cemetery, Kanchanaburi, Thailand. (Find a Grave ID 10834488) But that's all I know. I can find very little information about the 85th Anti-Tank Regiment or their service in Malaya. When I first tried looking them up all I could find was the 85th Anti-Aircraft Regiment. Are the they same? After more searching I found that they arrived in Malaya on 13 Jan 1942. Do you have any more info on this regiment? Specifically any info on them being in Thailand? Is there a way I can find out how William Garton Faulkner was killed? Was he a POW and died in a camp or Killed in Action?

    William Garton Faulkner Sr was a Sargeant Major in the XLIV (44th) Howitzer Brigade, R.F.A. Regimental Number: 71649 during WWI and Jr's older brother, Edward Poole Faulkner, Battery Sergeant Major (BS MAJ) in the 24th Bragade of the RFA. WOII, Regimental Number: 34695 during WWI. Both his father and brother survived WWI.

    Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated, even if it's just a few web site addresses I can go to for research.
     
  6. papiermache

    papiermache WO 356 Mechanic

    Welcome to the forum.

    Obtaining his service records is always the best way to start serious research.

    If you put his name into "Find My Past" some records should emerge, after a fashion. FMP is a subscription resource but is free to use at the National Archives at Kew, tube station Kew Gardens. For more information see the thread "Kew Tips" and the National Archives website.

    FMP should have his IJA POW registration card which could give details of his death. "IJA" means Imperial Japanese Army." The Kew document series is WO 345.

    If you can get to Kew the files to look at include WO356/9. This is the Judge Advocate General's "Dead Victims" card index on microfilm. There might be a card since you say that Gnr W.G.Faulkner was killed. I can look this up for you but am currently away from my other computer.

    Paper files of use are in WO 361 which are readable with a reader's ticket. See the Kew website for details.

    WO361/2104 will tell you the date he left Singapore for Thailand. One of the regulars here can probably tell you that.

    More files are in WO 361. I haven't checked but many of these will have been open to the public to see since about April 2011. Kew has a "100 year rule" so more information may emerge in the 2020's.

    Files about the 85th Anti-Tank in WO361 are these:


    WO 361/2104 War Office: Department of the Permanent Under Secretary of State: Casualties (L) Branch: Enquiries into Missing Personnel, 1939-45 War. | Prisoners of war, Far East: 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; nominal roll | Prisoners of war, Far East: 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; nominal roll. | Held by: The National Archives 01/01/1942 31/12/1945 Former Reference Dep: 33

    WO 361/240 War Office: Department of the Permanent Under Secretary of State: Casualties (L) Branch: Enquiries into Missing Personnel, 1939-45 War. | Malaya: 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; missing personnel | Malaya: 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; missing personnel. | Held by: The National Archives 01/01/1943 31/12/1946 Former Reference Dep: M 367 Enclosure 7

    WO 361/1301 War Office: Department of the Permanent Under Secretary of State: Casualties (L) Branch: Enquiries into Missing Personnel, 1939-45 War. | Far East: 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; POW deaths | Far East: 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; POW deaths. | Held by: The National Archives 01/01/1946 15/07/1946 Former Reference Dep: SS/330/141/366

    WO 361/1159 War Office: Department of the Permanent Under Secretary of State: Casualties (L) Branch: Enquiries into Missing Personnel, 1939-45 War. | Far East: 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; death and burial certificates | Far East: 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; death and burial certificates. | Held by: The National Archives 24/05/1943 08/11/1945 Former Reference Dep: SS/330/141/218

    WO 361/1208 War Office: Department of the Permanent Under Secretary of State: Casualties (L) Branch: Enquiries into Missing Personnel, 1939-45 War. | Far East: Singapore and Thailand; 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; casualties | Far East: Singapore and Thailand; 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery; casualties. | Held by: The National Archives 22/11/1945 31/05/1946 Former Reference Dep: SS/330/141/273

    WO 361/1144 War Office: Department of the Permanent Under Secretary of State: Casualties (L) Branch: Enquiries into Missing Personnel, 1939-45 War. | Far East: list of casualties and missing from 251 (Oxford Yeomanry) Anti-Tank Battery and 85th ... | Far East: list of casualties and missing from 251 (Oxford Yeomanry) Anti-Tank Battery and 85th Regiment, Royal Artillery, by Major J Turrill. | Held by: The National Archives 01/11/1945 02/02/1946 Former Reference Dep: SS/330/141/203

    WO 361/1110 War Office: Department of the Permanent Under Secretary of State: Casualties (L) Branch: Enquiries into Missing Personnel, 1939-45 War. | Far East: Singapore; casualty return for 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery, by Lieutenant-Colonel Lardner Clarke | Far East: Singapore; casualty return for 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery, by Lieutenant-Colonel Lardner Clarke. | Held by: The National Archives 24/10/1945 19/03/1946 Former Reference Dep: SS/330/141/169

    WO 361/306 War Office: Department of the Permanent Under Secretary of State: Casualties (L) Branch: Enquiries into Missing Personnel, 1939-45 War. | Malaya: Royal Army Service Corps personnel attached to 85th Anti-Tank Attachment, Royal Artillery; missing men | Malaya: Royal Army Service Corps personnel attached to 85th Anti-Tank Attachment, Royal Artillery; missing men. | Held by: The National Archives 01/05/1942 31/07/1945 Former Reference Dep: M 377 Enclosure 9

    The Imperial War Museum in Lambeth will have records which may mention Gnr Faulkner. You have to book an appointment. A simple search brings up these:


    Catalogue number
    Documents.25018
    DepartmentDocuments Subject period
    Second World War
    Dimensions
    whole: 1 file
    Creator
    Young, Stuart Harold
    Category private paper

    Content description

    Copy of his published 'Life on the Death Railway: The Memoirs of a British POW' (Pen & Sword 2013) giving an account of his capture by the Japanese in Singapore in February 1942 while serving in the Far East as a Bombardier with 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery, and his subsequent experiences as a prisoner of war in the camps at Changi and River Valley Road in Singapore, and (as a member of POW 'C Battalion') on the Burma-Thailand Railway at Tonchan, Tampi, Tamuang and Sraburi from October 1942 to the end of the war in August 1945; with associated documents, including a handwritten nominal roll of the POWs of 'C' (or 10) Battalion giving rank, military service and POW numbers, unit, civilian occupation, home address of next-of-kin, and notes on their movements as prisoners, incorporating a separate list of those POWs who died in captivity; reproductions of several documents recording Young's baptism into the Church of England at Tamuang camp in July 1944 by the Australian padre Harry Thorpe.


    Catalogue number
    Documents.23945
    DepartmentDocuments Subject period
    Second World War
    Dimensions
    whole: 1 file
    Creator
    Sullivan, Gerald
    Category private paper

    Content description

    Official Imperial Japanese Army POW postcard (no date) sent by Sullivan to his mother in Stockport, England, from Number 2 POW Camp, Thailand (Chungkai HQ group), with pre-printed message and manuscript additions; cyclostyled letter (1p ts) dated August 1945 to Mrs Sullivan from the Secretary of the Royal Artillery Association, expressing sympathy on the loss of her son and offering assistance as appropriate; letter (2pp ms) dated January 1946 to Mrs Sullivan from her son’s former commanding officer, Major J P Turrill of 251st Anti-Tank Battery, 85th Anti-Tank Regiment RA, informing her of how he heard of Gunner Sullivan’s death in July 1943 in the Tamarkan camp whilst he (Turrill) was also on the Burma-Thailand Railway, despite the difficulties of transmitting news from one camp to another, and praising Sullivan’s qualities as a soldier and his readiness to help others, “a man you can be really proud of, as I was proud to have had him in my Battery”.


    Good hunting.
     
    Owen likes this.
  7. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    From Findagrave.

    (Name added on this Forum to the Royal Artillery Comemoration thread on July 30, 2017)

    Gunner FAULKNER, WILLIAM GARTON
    Service Number: 1033539
    Died: 13/07/1943
    Aged: 45
    Unit: 85 Anti-Tank Regt.
    Regiment: Royal Artillery
    Son of William Garton Faulkner and of Sophia Faulkner (nee Poole).
    KANCHANABURI WAR CEMETERY


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  8. Beverly

    Beverly Member

    I am researching William Garton Faulkner (Jr), Gunner, in the 85th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Field Artillery.

    Thank you for replying and all your suggestions. I checked Find My Past but it had the same information as Ancestry.com which showed his birth registration and the 1901 England Census and that's it. Find My Past actually had nothing on his father but Ancestry had several documents including the Medals he had received.

    Unfortunately I can not go to Kew because I live in Seattle, WA USA and am currently out of a job so no money to travel that far.

    I tried the National Archives website before entering this inquiry and I was able to pull up the 85th Anti-Tank Reg but not William by name so if I pay for the info on the 85th there is no guarantee it will mention William. I'm leary about paying for something when it might not contain any info of use to me. But in the end I will probably order them.

    In my search I did see the info on the book "Life on the Death Railway". I know I can get this as a Kindle book (cheaper then a hard cover). It's also a possibility. I don't think the post card would offer me any information as it's about Sullivan and he probably wasn't able to send info about any other POW in camp.

    I have sent a message to the Contributor of the Find a Grave site for William hoping he/she has more info but have not heard back yet.

    Also after I sent this thread I found a site called "Forces War Records". It is also a pay site but it claims to have actual records on William so come pay-day I will probably pay for a one month sub. to try to get info from them. It gives me a teaser about medals.

    Again Thank you for your help
     
  9. Beverly

    Beverly Member

    PS

    Fold3 is often a really good source and I have a subscription to that site with my Ancestry.com but it also had nothing on William G Jr, Sr or Edward P,.
     
  10. papiermache

    papiermache WO 356 Mechanic

    Beverley, thank you for explaining your research to date.
    Obtaining service records procedure is explained here Get a copy of military service records - GOV.UK
    The commercial site you mention won't have much.
    I haven't actually got my uncle's service records, or my father's, and have not regarded the lack of them as slowing progress. I will get around to it one day.

    Since I will probably look at all the WO361 files I mentioned above at Kew in connection with members of the 85 AT who were on the Hofuku Maru ( see the thread ) I can add your relative to the list. There were 47 different units on the ship so I've got a way to go, but I can bring the 85 AT to the top of the list. I'm a lot closer to Kew than you are.
    WO361 files can be very slim, just two or three pages, so it can be quite fast to go through them. Others are bulky files.
    Someone else on here may already have the files.
     
  11. Beverly

    Beverly Member

    So I just found another site that had copies of actual documents for free! https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead The document I found let me know that William G was origianlly buried at Kan'buri Base Hospital Cemetery (also called the Desert Camp) then on 29 Jan 1946 (with many other soldiers) was moved to Kanchanaburi War Cemetery. So I looked up Kan'buri Base Hospital Cemetery and found the following web site:

    Kan'buri Base Britian at War.
    www.britain-at-war.org.uk/ww2/Death_Railway/html/body_kan_buri_base.htm

    This web site, Information from Railway of Death by John Coast, leads me to believe he was a POW.

    If there is some kind of list of web sites to search, these 2 sites should be added to the list.
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Forces War Records will probably not have anything of real use to you so I would avoid.

    Ref war diaries it's unlikely your chap will be mentioned in them by name but they will give you an idea on what the regiment was doing and where prior to his capture. I would take the above advise-Whilst I can't recall him ever buying me a large Latte at the archives he does know his way around the Far East PoW scene ;)
     
    papiermache likes this.
  13. Enigma1003

    Enigma1003 Member

    Beverly,

    Gunner William Garton Faulkner, address shown as 114 Eclinton Ave, East, Toronto.
    Imprisoned Changi, sent to the Siam Railroad on 9th October 1942.
    Died on 13th July 1943 and originally buried at Kanchanaburi Paper Mill in grave No. 92.
    Cause of death listed as Gastro Enteritis.

    Thats all I have, sorry.
    Dont waste your money at Forces War Records, they are so inaccurate, and they refuse to do corrections even when given evidence. e.g they state he died on 13/07/43 but then also state he was liberated on 02/09/1945.

    Mike
     
    papiermache, ramacal and Owen like this.
  14. Beverly

    Beverly Member

    Fa Database

    He was a Japanese POW! Place of Death: Thailand-Burma Railway, however it has the Cause of Death blank so I may never know that.
     
  15. Beverly

    Beverly Member

    Thank you, Thank you, all of you for the wonderful information and help!!
     
  16. Enigma1003

    Enigma1003 Member

    Beverly, cause ... see above

    Mike
     
  17. Beverly

    Beverly Member

    Got it, I hadn't refreshed the page when I wrote mine.
     
  18. papiermache

    papiermache WO 356 Mechanic

    I confess it's true, no cups of coffee for Drew and no idea what Mike looks like, but happy to oblige in the future.
    Glad the cavalry arrived to help make progress, although war diaries were destroyed when the defenders of Singapore capitulated. Any that now exist were written from memory. However, there may be war diaries for the 85 AT relating to training. I'll check WO 356 anyway but the cause of death now stated will probably mean there won't be a card. As stated, I will look in the files mentioned when I get the chance to buy coffee at Kew and come back to the thread.
     
  19. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Don't know if this will help but 35th Regt LAA arrived with 85th A/T at the same time in Singapore. 35th's early War Diary covering time in UK is in WO 166 series. However Diary covering 1Nov41-31 Jan 42 is in WO 172 series (Malaya) and thanks to Drew for discovering this one.
    Tim
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  20. NeryRHA

    NeryRHA New Member

    Hi Beverly

    While researching Australian and British WW1 & WW2 soldiers I ran across Gunner William Garton Faulkner who served in WW1 as a Trumpeter in 1914 service number 71649. Then I traced Gnr. W. G. Faulkner as a POW in Thailand WW2 with service number 1033539 who died 13 July 1943. On researching Ancestry I discovered two William Garton Faulkner's the Senior born 1855 if was suggested served in WW1 as trumpeter and driver/gunner; however this seemed to be strange to be a trumpeter at the age of 59 in 1914 and served as a driver. But his family tree placed him in Canada during 1902 to 1920.
    The possible explaination based on my own grandfather (b. 1890) who enlisted in 1906/7 as a boy soldier in the Royal Horse Artillery and 1910 was a rough rider on the led gun carriage horse. It seem that William Garton Faulkner (b. 1897) (junior) enlisted as boy soldier in the Artillery and was a trumpeter (service number 71649) by 1914 and went with the BEF to France. After the war some men remained in the army as regulars during the inter-war period. It would seem that W. G. Faulkner may done so and 1914/18 service number changed in 1920 like so many other servicemen who served on.
    It highly likely that service number became 1033539, this would tie in with his age of 45 years when he died as a POW of the Japs.
    This could be proved from his service papers, which prove the links I have suggested; therefore his group could 1914 Star and Bar, BWM, Vic, LS&GC (?), plus 1939-45 Star, Burma Star, Defence and War medals.
    It is common to merge father and son who have the same name.
     

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