7th Royal Tank Regiment

Hello Mikal,

Just back from celebrating the Royal Wedding at my son's house...

The Infantry involved in the Arras counter-attack were the 151st Brigade, made up of the 6th, 8th and 9th Bn's Durham Light Infantry; the latter in reserve. Various Divisional Troops were also involved; 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers (Recce), Artillery, Anti-tank, etc., and 3DLM (French Samua tanks, giving flank protection to the right hand column, i.e. the 8DLI).

The 151st Brigade were from 50th (Northumbrian) Division, which was a Motorised Division largely having to work without its transport - urgently required elswhere usually. It had already undertaken numerous lengthy marches; I recall a 37 mile and a 20 mile in the days prior to having to undertake an approach of 8 miles to the start line for the Arras counter-attack and then an anticipated 10 mile advance on foot during the attack. The 6th and 8th Battalion's did indeed arrive late, but so did at least one of the RTR regiments (4th and 7th) involved. Given the amount of marching these lads had undertaken in a short period of time and with the haste the attack was put together, I am not surprised by this.

All 50th Division and Regimental histories I have read indicate that orders for the counter-attack were that the 4th and 7th RTR were there to support the Infantry. What happened was that the tanks sped off, even the tank Regt that arrived late, shooting up the country side; most never to be seen again.

I am sure that it can be understood that a tank not moving in support of Infantry, but speeding off into the attack, will move far faster than Infantry on foot. Hence, why the 4th and 7th RTR never had close Infantry support.

I understand from a previous thread that the 'tank' boys understanding of their orders was different to that of the Infantry, in that they were not in a supporting role. Could be the confusion of the moment, or convenient hindsight; who knows. But what isn't right, given the foregoing, is for the 'tank' boys to carp about the lack Infantry support.

I suggest a battlefield tour run by old tank boys will not be without bias towards the actions of the 4th and 7th RTR. And from what I have read, the Durhams were more appreciative of the support afforded by 3DLM than that of the 4th and 7th RTR...

Anyway, thats all for now. If you wish to see something more specific, happy to oblige.

Pleased to see you back on these pages...

Best,

Steve.

 

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I have all the BEF units war diaries involved in this action....I think I'll put them at the top of my read list.

 

Hi,

I wanted to post in this thread as I met an 86 year old this week who is a veteran of 7th Royal Tank Regiment.

I asked him what he did for a living and he simply said he was a Lorry Driver. I knew how old he was though so I asked: "Surely a man of your age saw service?". His face brightened a bit at that point and he told me he "drove tanks" in the war. I asked which ones and he said Churchills. I suggested that it cant have been a simple matter to have driven one, in comparision to a modern vehicle and he just laughed in agreement. I equired as to his unit and he said 7th Royal Tank Regiment. I asked him if he had been deployed at all and he told me in a very matter of fact way that he had been in Normandy around D-Day, onto villers-bocage and around Caen. I asked him about the Germans and he started to talk about Tiger Tanks and them being armed with 88s. He sugested that they felt prety unprotected form that sort of threat.

I asked him were he went to following Normady and he said "Cassel, on German Border". (I asked him how it was spelt and he was sure it was with a c not a k). I asked him what happend there and he just said "Blown up". I was bit taken aback and didn't say anything and he followed up with " The tank got hit". I asked him if everyone got out and he said no. Then he said he didn't usually talk about it and looked a bit upset. I appologised and said I would ask any more questions, but then he voluntered more information. "Thing is, Churchill's got two side doors, weigh a ton each. But you make sure you can open 'em with your little finger. If the turret gets hit, well its full of.....(me; ammunition?)...Yes. Its gonna go up. Me and the front gunner made it out but the others, in the turret, didn't". He told me he was quickly assigned to a new tank but for some reason was cas-evac'd back to Birmingham Selly Oak a few days later. I didn't feel it was appropriate to keep on questioning him so stopped at that point.

I have read a bit now about 7th RTR and assume he joined after the North African campain, as he diddn't mention it. I cant find "Cassel" on the map. I wondered about Kassel, but it seems a bit far east. I was fascinated to hear he had been flown back to the Birmingham hospital as a casualty in the war, because of course that has been exaclty its role in recent years.

If anybody can shed any light on any of this I would be interested. I may or may not have the opertunity to see him again, but dont intend to press him for more information unless he volunteers it.

Regards,

Ian

 

May I refer you to The History of the 4th and 7th Royal Tank Regiments - Home

 

That's a very good site!

Here's another DSO which was downgraded to a bar to the MC. I would also like to know the criteria, especially given that DSOs were rained on Brigadiers for losing lots of tanks in the same operation...

Lieutenant McGinlay’s DSO « The Crusader Project

Here's Lt. McGinley's view on the Matilda:

Some views on the Matilda II « The Crusader Project

Here's how German soldiers felt about being at the wrong end of a Matilda of 7 R.T.R.

Defending Position 19 « The Crusader Project

All the best

Andreas

All the best

Andreas

 

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2-pdr HE - there has been a lot of discussion regarding the provision of an HE round for the 2-pdr anti-tank gun and the general concensus appears to be that there was no such 'HE' round available in the field, HOWEVER, the early on in the war tha 2-pdr A/T round had a small (some would say very small) bursting charge and a fuse in the shell base so there may have been some small 'HE effect' if the round were fired at a non-armoured target. I don't know if this round continued in production as it's outside my area of interest, however I'd love to know whether the 2-pdr round with bursting charge actually had any measured effect on soft or ground targets - anecdotal evidence aside, of course.

Best regards,

Nick

David Fletcher is quite clear that there wasn't any HE delivered to North Africa at least, and that's pretty much all the period that matters. That's good enough for me.

On the effect - I doubt that unless you have a pretty direct hit it would have had much of an effect. I think this whole debate is flawed from the outset, by presuming that the German tank guns of the early war (37 and 50mm) were somehow better in engaging artillery because they had HE shells. I think that's wrong, and that the War Office (or Ministry of Defence, whatever it was in the 1930s) was right (God forbid!).

All the best

Andreas

 

Von Poop

For all the 'knockers" of the 4th and 7th RTR - they should read the account of those
two regiments in the Desert of 1941/42 - in your link - might shut them up and start to realize some of the problems the Tank crews had with inferior Guns and Tanks - not to mention tactics against an enemy with superior fire power almost to the end of that war
- and think how easy the crews had it with fighting all day - then maintenance - then dinner probably cold bully - then guard duty and finally 2 hours sleep before fighting all day to-morrow......
Might make them think BEFORE critisising a lack of support way back in the early days

Cheers

 

I have the following recommendations for immediate awards for the battle in November 41. Not all of them awarded however:

Lt. McGinlay - D.S.O.
Capt. Craig - M.C.
S.S.M. Arnold - D.C.M.
Cpl. Cowlard - M.M. (he DOW before this could be awarded)
L/Cpl. O'Gorman - M.M.
L/Cpl McKeand - M.M.
Tpr. Griffin - M.M.

All the best

Andreas

 

I am interested in the information for
7902928 L/Cpl James William O'GORMAN However the attached thumbnail is not for James? Sorry only just joined the forum and unsure how this works !?


Attached Thumbnails

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I'll have a looksee tonight or tomorrow if I can. I only have those files on paper.

All the best

Andreas

 

I have D Squadron's war diary for 1941. If I get a chance I'll look tonight for you failing that it will be when I get back from the National Archives.

 

I have read this thread with considerable personal interest.

My late father, a Regular Soldier, was the Fitter Sergeant with G Company 7 RTR immediately prior to the Battle of Arras. He had joined the Regiment on return from India in 1938. In 1939 the Regiment's senior Fitters had been tasked with assisting with post production tests of the Regiments tanks in Lancashire. Their comments were vitriolic and included an unreliable gearbox and an under powered engine which meant the tank was unable to climb up steep inclines. On return to the Regiment they were threatened with disciplinary action and acCused of being defeatists/cowards. Events in France six months later were to prove them right in their opinions. Further proof of the tanks mechanical limitations occured during the retreat from the Belgian border. Glanton and Gloucester both broke down and my father was ordered to stay behind and completely disable the two tanks. Whilst he was inside Glanton an electrical flashover occured and the tank burst into flames. He was badly burnt whilst escaping and the fact that his overalls were heavily impregnated with oil and did not catch fire probably saved his life. Another factor was that Bonzo Parkes (referred to elsewhere in this thread) was passing by and saw the incident.He gave my father two options, stay behind and take his chances with the Germans or hope he could be evacuated by the British. He chose the latter but subsequently passed out and recovered consciousness several days later on Southampton Docks swathed in bandages with a RAMC Orderly bending over saying "this ones a goner".

Intriguingly someone took a photograph of the burning tanks which was later published on the front cover of Signal, the German Army propaganda magazine and also as post cards. My father, now fully recovered and serving under Bonzo Parkes as AQMS to 47 RTR in the Western Desert, was greeted one morning by his CO with words to the effect "here Sergeant Major you'd better have this".

My late father in law, a TA volunteer and proud member of 8 DLI, (he was to remain with the Battalion throughout the entire war, rising to the rank of CQMS) was also in the Arras area and from my memories of his wartime experiences, would confirm the lack of Armour/Infantry understanding and lack of motor transport at the time. He once commented that morale was not enhanced during the first long approach march when they passed a WW1 War Cemetery containing a very significant number of DLI graves.

 

Sorry for the delay. Taken from WO 169/1417 D Squadron, 7 Royal Tank Regiment War Diary November 1941.

 

Just to add some Tank names to Drews post above.
T6923 - GULLIVER III
T6963 - GODIVA
T10085 - GRIMSBY
T10128 - GO TO IT

 

Not on the list, so presumably a casualty on 21 November (Rommel took a picture of it):

T10130 - GIRAFFE III

Then I have one with an unreadable number, probably ending on '5' - GOLIATH

All the best

Andreas

 

Hi Andreas,

Thanks for those. I have 2 numbers for GOLIATH's T6832 and T7361.
Any chance you could post pictures or photo sources?

cheers

Kevin