77th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery. LAD

Discussion in '1940' started by Adam Petipher, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Member

    I am trying to find out about L.A.D. attached to the 77th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery in 1940.

    I would like to know:
    1. What L.A.D. stands for

    2. Who was in this L.A.D? Is there a record?

    3. In particular I am looking for the name of an NCO in the LAD killed on the 21st of May 1940.

    Thank you
     
  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Light Aid Detachment....RAOC men allocated to deal with maintenance of guns and equipment. As 77th Field Regiment were part of 4th Infantry Division in 2 Corps, I believe that an LAD attached would have come from No.2 Ordnance Field Park.

    Could it have been this chap who was first buried at Tieghem ? He could have been an acting Lance Corporal and that would not be recorded.

    Casualty
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  3. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    Not at all my area of expertise, but from another thread on this forum found by using the search box top right:

    Light Aid Detachments were attached to all battalion sized units. They were integrated into
    the units to which they were attached and carried out tasks beyond the skills and equipment
    of unit fitters, but which did not require workshop facilities.

    They were REME Units.
     
  4. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi

    LAD stands for Light Aid Detachment and it was a small team of vehicle mechanics and drivers who would attempt to fix any broken down or damaged vehicle. If they couldn't fix it they would call in a recovery team to take it to their workshops. A bit like the AA man today. A few war diaries have the LAD diary as a annex. So I would have a look at 77 Fd Regt and you might get lucky.

    Can only find 3 Gunners on CWGC from 77 Fd Regt who were killed that day. No NCOs.

    1507658 CHARLES FREDERICK BURNS
    831022 GEORGE WILLIAM POUNDALL
    881929 SAMUEL JOHNSTONE WALLACE

    Hope this helps

    Gus
     
  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Just to clarify, REME was yet to be formed so LADs were part of the Royal Army Ordnance Corps.
     
  6. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Member

    Thank you all.
    Very interesting.
    In the war diaries it mentions 3 deaths on the 21st May 1940:
    SJ Wallace, Gunner Burns (my great uncle) and an un named NCO.

    I wonder if the unknown NCO is Poundall?

    Both Burns and Poundall do not have a grave and are on the dunkirk memorial as soldiers without graves.

    On the concentration sheet for SJ Wallace on the CWGC website and another sheet which cover the roadside burials at Tieghem there are 2 unknown soldiers.
    I wonder if these are Burns and Poundall??
     
  7. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Member

    Does anybody have a photo from the war diaries for 77th field regiment showing the roll call which includes G W Poundall?
    This will have his rank.

    Also any information as to where and how he was killed would be very useful.

    Thank you
     
  8. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi

    4 separate sources on FMP has Poundall listed as a gunner at time of death.

    Looking at CWGC again, I found a Private in the RAOC who is listed as "attached 77 Fd Regt". Casualty

    All BEF vehicles were fixed and maintained by a large number of RAOC Army Field Workshops (My Dad was in the BEF in No.11 AFW). The Teams that brought the vehicles back to the AFW were called Recovery Sections. Three Recovery Sections per workshop. As far as I am aware, all new vehicles were held at Ordnance Field Parks and their own fitters prepared them for use. They also handled vehicles which were beyond local repair and sent back to UK.

    Below is the REME establishment for a LAD attd to a Fd Regt, a bit later in the war, but it wont be that different.

    Light Aid Detachment Type B (Unarmoured) attached to
    Field Regiment RA in an Infantry Division
    Warrant Officer Class I, Armament Artificer
    serjeant vehicle mechanic
    3 X driver mechanic
    electrician, vehicle and plant
    2 X fitter
    vehicle mechanic
    acetylene welder, Class II
    lance corporal storeman
    storeman, trained as motor cyclist
    Total 12 all ranks

    1 X motorcycle
    1 X car 2 seater
    2 X 3ton stores lorry
    1 X 3ton 6 X 4 breakdown gantry

    Someone on the forum might actually have the RAOC war establishment for LAD in 1939-40.

    Hope this helps

    Gus
     
  9. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Member

    Thank you Gus, very interesting!
    Sorry for my ignorance but what does FMP stand for?
     
    gmyles likes this.
  10. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Find My Past - Genealogy Website
     
  11. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I'm thoroughly puzzled here.

    Why was the Light Aid Detachment (manned by RAOC) mentioned if the intention is to trace Royal Artillery casualties ?

    Was the NCO mentioned referred to as being from the LAD ? If so, then he will not be a Gunner, Bombardier or any other Royal Artillery rank as he will be Ordnance.

    Unfortunately, if the NCO had not been formally promoted then regardless of whether he was "Acting, Unpaid" or "Paid, Acting", and although he could have put a stripe up, he will not be noted as having rank in any casualty returns.
     
  12. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Member

    Hello Rich,
    The war diary entry of the 21st says "heavy enemy shelling and RHQ badly shot up killing the cook gunner burns -/& an NCO in the LAD."

    I'm just trying to make sense of the entry. Is there an NCO or was gunner Burns the NCO in the LAD? As far as I know he wasnt in the LAD. Or perhaps the LAD is a building?
    I just don't know!
     
  13. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi

    I think there's more chance the NCO is 7600477 Pte Stonehouse of the RAOC I mentioned earlier who may have held an acting rank of lance corporal.

    As mentioned above LAD were normally from RAOC and later REME, not RA.

    Gus
     
  14. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Member

    Ok so its probable that CF Burns and CW Shorthouse were killed at the same time and that Shorthouse was the NCO.

    There is one unknown soldier with an unknown death date on the tieghem roadside cemetery sheet. Is it likely that it is CF Burns?
    I note that GW Poundall is also a soldier from the same regiment and also killed on the 21st, so I suppose it could equally be him.
     
  15. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Member

    Yesterday I went to the national archives and looked at the war diary for 77th field regiment, RA. It surprisingly has a roll call for all other ranks other than just officers.
    I can see CF Burns, SJ Wallace and even Shorthouse under RAOC/LAD, but no GW Poundall. I wonder if he was in another regiment and CWGC got it wrong from bad handwriting somewhere?
    I am now wondering if maybe he was in the 17th instead of the 77th.
     

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