70th Anniversary of Dieppe Raid

Discussion in 'All Anniversaries' started by Scout Sniper, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. La-de-da-Gunner Graham

    La-de-da-Gunner Graham Senior Member

    Keith, thanks for posting.
    Photo on the right reads '4000 German Casualties'.
    I don't think so.

    Agreed. I like to think though that the public would know when they are being sold a line.

    Keith
     
  2. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Agreed. I like to think though that the public would know when they are being sold a line.

    Keith

    Not always. Most Americans continue to believe the myth of Iwo Jima. Propaganda is a clever weapon.
     
  3. ipress123

    ipress123 Junior Member

    MY ORIGINAL LETTER TO THE EDITOR IN THE NATIONAL POST:

    Sunday night CBC aired “Dieppe Uncovered” based on the research of Historian David O’Keefe. CBC made it appear that this was the first time that the real purpose of the Dieppe raid, Communications Intelligence collection, was known. The CBC concluded that DIEPPE was a failure, but they may have got it wrong.
    In 1976 Canadian author William Stevenson published A Man Called Intrepid, a biography of Sir William Samuel Stephenson, CC, MC, DFC (1897 –1989), a Winnipegger who became a major allied spymaster in WWII. Stevenson’s book was a best-seller and was vetted by Stephenson. There was a TV series about Intrepid- staring David Niven. In the book, Stevenson clearly states that the real purpose of the Dieppe raid was to gather intelligence and, in particular, seize Nazi radar equipment. This is surely known to historians of World War II. There are several references made to emphasize the value of the Dieppe attack for the Normandy landings in 1944
    “Only Churchill, Roosevelt and the handful of intelligence chiefs were aware of the critical deception made possible from the intelligence gathered through JUBILEE at Dieppe” (p.506) There was no mention of this in the CBC program. “Almost all the survivors thought of the Dieppe raid as a failure. The hard decision had been made that they could not be told otherwise- but it had been a tremendous, if extravagant, success.” (p.426)
    Another interesting aspect of the “Dieppe Uncovered” show was the connection to Ian Fleming. Stevenson’s book has 11 references to Fleming’s role in intelligence during WWII.

    There is a William Stephenson society in Winnipeg. Water Street inWinnipeg was renamed in his honour. There is also a statue of him.

    NOTE: My PhD advisor, Peter J Hilton, was one of the first Mathematicians to work on breaking the German Naval codes at Bletchley Park. They were successful. The first computers were built there, under the direction of Alan Turing, by a man called Tommy Flowers for this purpose. The Brits failed to take advantage of their technological lead and missed the "computer boat" One of the greatest code breaker was Bill Tutte, who came to Canada and taught at Waterloo until his death. He broke the Lorenz code- Hitler's most secret and private system.

    PS Many of the "les filles du roi" King's brides who were sent to Quebec in the 1600's were from the Dieppe/Nomandy region and sailed from Dieppe

    PS MY FATHER WAS IN THE RCAF (Ferry Squadron) with both of my mother's brothers during WWII
     
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  4. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    I remain sceptical of the so called success of the raid. From an intelligence standpoint or otherwise. A point which is ignored is that the role of 40 Commando was as much of a failure as the overall raid itself. Of the 370 men, 76 were killed on the beach. They fared no better than the RHLI who landed ahead of them. Another 200 did not even land as the CO waved them off at seeing the debacle unfolding. From the accounts I have seen, no Commandos made it off the beach in Dieppe and no evidence has been presented that they succeeded in acquiring anything of intelligence value.
    So, if that mission was the real reason for the raid, it too was part of the flawed plan with no results to show for the losses incurred.
    The myth continues.
     
  5. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    The fact that 40 Commando remained offshore as a floating reserve force during the early part of the raid is further evidence that they were not the focal point of the operation. They were finally ordered ashore by Ham-Roberts under the mistaken belief that the RHLI had secured the beach. Leaving the engagement of the Commandos to the discretion of the Canadian operational commander is simply inconsistent with the "primary objective" argument.
     
  6. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

  7. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

  8. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Tim
    Those are great links.
    The 2 men mentioned the very thing that should have caused the plan to be rejected. the cobble on the beach, both these interviews describe the effect of the moving men and equipment acrooss this obstacle under fire. the first mentions its effect on the tanks. the second on the shredding of effect of the mortor and shellfire when combined with the cobble being thrown up on the men trying cover the ground.
    As I have said elsewhere.
    " I still cant imagine what moron thought that, the Dieppe raid would be a good idea. Anyone who ever drove a tracked loader over cobble like that would tell you, you couldn’t move tanks on it, and never mind trying to run or crawl up a beach covered with 70 mm cobble [try it some time I did]. The kind of devastation a 3" mortar let alone a 5" naval gun would kick up must be beyond comprehension.
    Maybe the Dieppe raid also sounded the death knell for the second sons and 'nar-do-wells' of British aristocracy [seems they were pretty well all weeded out by the end of 1942] sending the life blood of the commonwealth to their deaths in ill conceived and pointless missions."
     
  9. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Tim
    Those are great links.
    The 2 men mentioned the very thing that should have caused the plan to be rejected. the cobble on the beach, both these interviews describe the effect of the moving men and equipment acrooss this obstacle under fire. the first mentions its effect on the tanks. the second on the shredding of effect of the mortor and shellfire when combined with the cobble being thrown up on the men trying cover the ground.
    As I have said elsewhere.

    Matt,
    As I have posted previously, it was standing at waters edge on those beaches that forever altered my view on the Dieppe operation. In fact, I recall my first view of the dominating heights at Puys and after catching my breath, saying aloud, " you brave bastards, you never had a chance".
    My next thought was that Mountbatten lived 34 years too long.
     
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  10. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    From the war diaries of Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke on Mountbatten:

    During eighteen months in command of HMS Kelly he almost capsized in high seas, collided with another destroyer, was mined once, torpedoed twice, and finally sunk by enemy aircraft. Many of these incidents were the result of Mountbatten's own bravado and carelessness.

    With the possible exception of Montgomery, he was the most talented self-publicist among the senior British commanders, with an instinctive grasp of how to enhance his popularity with those serving under him.

    Kind of says it all, eh?
     
    Mark Surridge likes this.
  11. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

  12. sebfrench76

    sebfrench76 Senior Member

    What is the common thought about the role of the tanks in Dieppe?
    Did they reached their objectives according to you?
    A friend of mine ,just having read the book "des chenilles et des galets" , told me recently that the tanks reached the center of Dieppe,were very successful,killing a lot of Germans,and that they were destroyed during the withdrawal on the beach,ONLY cause they were used as fix defenses for the infantry,and so were easy targets for the 47 german AT gun.So,according to my friend (and the author point of view) ,the pics of the disabled tanks everybody knows are not showing unusefull tanks that never left the beach,but rather tanks sacrified for the re-embankment "safety"...
    Am i correct?

    Dieppe 1942 Chenilles & galets : Le Calgary Tank Regiment: Amazon.fr: Thierry Chion: Livres
     
  13. Bonny

    Bonny Junior Member

    Hello,
    I am sorry to break in train of thought, but I am linking into thread Dieppe.
    For the past two years I have been trying to find my grandfather who at 28+years old died in the Raid on Dieppe.
    The information is limited but I am the eternal optimist !
    He lived/ was in Bedfordshire in 1932 when he conceived my father !and my grandmother told my father "he was in the commando regiment and was killed in the Raid on Dieppe early on in the war"
    Am I being too optimistic thinking I could find him without any futher info than that?
    Bonny
     
  14. La-de-da-Gunner Graham

    La-de-da-Gunner Graham Senior Member

    Can you post his full name etc Bonny. Welcome to the forum BTW.

    Keith
     
  15. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Bonny,

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    As already stated, post as many details as possible and with the expert knowledge of the membership you should get more information.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  16. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    What is the common thought about the role of the tanks in Dieppe?
    Did they reached their objectives according to you?
    A friend of mine ,just having read the book "des chenilles et des galets" , told me recently that the tanks reached the center of Dieppe,were very successful,killing a lot of Germans,and that they were destroyed during the withdrawal on the beach,ONLY cause they were used as fix defenses for the infantry,and so were easy targets for the 47 german AT gun.So,according to my friend (and the author point of view) ,the pics of the disabled tanks everybody knows are not showing unusefull tanks that never left the beach,but rather tanks sacrified for the re-embankment "safety"...
    Am i correct?
    Dieppe 1942 Chenilles & galets : Le Calgary Tank Regiment: Amazon.fr: Thierry Chion: Livres

    Seb
    here is a report written by Hugh Herny which describes the training and activities of the Calgary regiment on the beach that day he states that none of the tanks made it off the beach and that 15 did make it to the promenade [I always thought that at least 1 had made it into town]. and all were called back to the beach by 1100hrs to cover the evacutaion none were penetrated by AP rounds and no crews were lost while inside the tanks almost all were captured after they ran out of ammunition and chose to remain in their tanks rather than be slaughtered trying to get to a rescue craft. the report goes into great detail as to the effects of the cobble or chert on the beach and how they had never been tested or trained on that type of material. Additionally most of the tanks were late. only 15 of the 29 that landed were able to advance across the beach. the rest threw or broke tracks in the process the Germans didnt sight AT guns on the main beach as they had already tested the ability to move tanks on chert and discovered that it was impossible. All of the tanks were immobile by 1200hrs but continued to until ammunition was expended.
    Tim
    Certainly the cliffs over looking should have been enough to cause a sane planner to choose an other beach but when coupled with the slope and cobble/chert...I cant imagine that any of the planners were sane.
    this is the most I have ever looked at on dieppe and I know now why I dont study it these guys were Donkeys leading Lions.
    http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/cmh/back%20issues/CMH/volume%204/Issue%201/Henry%20-%20The%20Calgary%20Tanks%20at%20Dieppe.pdf

    Randy
    Montbatten unfortunetly wasnt the only psychopath or incompetant aristocrat with way to much power in the Btitish army.
     
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  17. sebfrench76

    sebfrench76 Senior Member

    Gpo's,thank you for your detailed response,but please forgive me:English language is sometimes a bit "hazy" for me...
    Do you mean that 15 tanks left the beach and came back at 11h00???Sorry,my English knowledges don't allow me to fully and clearly understand you.Even if i'm 45,could you explain to me like if i was 6???(héhéhé...)
     
  18. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Hi gpo's son,
    I am with Seb on this one,

    he states that none of the tanks made it off the beach and that 15 did make it to the promenade [I always thought that at least 1 had made it into town]. and all were called back to the beach by 1100hrs to cover the evacutaion

    Does Herny mean 15 tanks reached the promenade or got onto the promenade? I thought I had seen some pictures from after the raid of Churchills on metalled roads (could be the prom?). Going to bug me now - I will have to try and find the photos.
     
  19. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Had a poke around and found these:

    'Of the 28 or so tanks which got ashore, some 15 managed to cross the beach and get onto the promenade but once there they were prevented from making further progress by anti tank obstacles and were forced to retire back to the beach where they were able to offer little in the way of support to the infantry.'
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    None of the 28 Churchills allocated for the operation made it off the peebled beach and were stranded,resulting in a failure to get through the German obstacles leaving the infantry exposed to superior German fire.

    As regards the PM's name allocated to the new tank,the tank designer,Bert Foord, reputedly stated that Churchill "wanted his name removed after the Dieppe disaster"

    The duration from drawing board to production model for the Churchill was tight at 9 months and 6 prototypes were included in the 28 at Dieppe.
     

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