7 Royal Tank Regiment at Tobruk June 1942

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by Drew5233, Nov 17, 2014.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    From CAB 106/600

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    enzus59 likes this.
  2. pminotti

    pminotti Junior Member

    Very interesting, but which enemy tanks they meet?

    As in Italian and german reports, enemy is never clearly identified.

    I don't think that Pz III with 50/42, wich is the average german tank at that time, could engage Matilda II without heavy losses on their side.

    Nor this could be done from Italian M13.
     
  3. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

  4. pminotti

    pminotti Junior Member

  5. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    No, it is not clear what the notes refer to. It could be the Panzergranate Rot (the sub-calibre round), or the 50/L60.

    It is also not clear how much contact D Squadron 7 R.T.R. had with 50L42 equipped Mk. IIIs prior to Gazala. Looking at the battles around Tobruk, I think this would have been very limited.

    So no conclusive evidence, and I would put more faith into the German firing trials.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  6. pminotti

    pminotti Junior Member

    Achtungpanzer gives these penetration table:

    [​IMG][/URL]
     
  7. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    From when did the Germans have the superior Armour piercing ammunition available in N. Africa for their 50mm tank & anti tank guns?
     
  8. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    That's unreadable.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  9. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I would think from February 1941.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  10. pminotti

    pminotti Junior Member

  11. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Thanks, that's in a usable format now.
     
  12. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    I don't suppose that you have the same chart for the 37mm PaK or the 75mm L/24 do you?
     
  13. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

  14. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I would think from February 1941.

    All the best

    Andreas

    I assume you are referring to PzGr 39.

    would the same dates apply to PzGr 40?
     
  15. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Pz.Gr.39 was standard ammunition, Pz.Gr.40 was the tungsten round.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergranate_39

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergranate_40 (with penetration table - should be clear even though in German)

    So February 1941 would apply to both, although I just note that production of the 5cm KWK Pz.Gr.40 only started in 1941, and although it was substantial, it is an open question then when they were issued to units in the field.

    I would ask this question on AHF.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  16. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Thanks.
     
  17. pminotti

    pminotti Junior Member

  18. pminotti

    pminotti Junior Member

    More or less, are the same results, but remains the fact that a PzIII with 50/42 could engage a Matilda II only under 100 m
     
  19. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    More or less, are the same results, but remains the fact that a PzIII with 50/42 could engage a Matilda II only under 100 m


    Don't agree with that. You need to know the conditions for the test results to be able to make a judgement. 'Anzeige' in the field firing test seems to mean 'effect', it doesn't need to equate to full penetration, partial penetration with significant spalling on the inside could be deemed effective. On the other hand, the test results you posted are first at 30 degrees of the vertical, while the Matilda turret had nowhere near that angling, and they relate to full penetration with a non-deformed round passing into the compartment repeatedly, a significantly higher requirement. You also don't know whether they were carried out against higher-quality steel than that of a 1941 vintage Matilda II.

    So between all of that I would still argue that the 50L42 was likely to hurt the Matilda II at longer ranges than 100m.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  20. pminotti

    pminotti Junior Member

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