6th Armd Div - support unit designation query

Discussion in 'Italy' started by Gary Kennedy, May 1, 2017.

  1. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    A question re a discussion on another forum.

    6th Armoured Division added B Infantry Heavy Support Group to its orbat from December 1944, with its designation subsequently changed to 1st (Middlesex) Heavy Support Company from February 1945.

    The Company fulfilled the role of the Independent Machine Gun Company found in the Armoured Divisions of 21 Army Group, but I believe was organised slightly differently, with two MMG Platoons and two 4.2-inch Mortar Platoons rather than three and one respectively.

    Questions then; where was it recruited from, and why was it initially called 'B' Group? My totally unsupported thought was perhaps there was an 'A' Group slated for 1st Armoured Division, but because that formation was disbanded at the end of 1944, beginning of 1945, no 'A' was ever activated.

    Gary
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Wasn't there a change from Bde Sp Gps to Div MG Bns in the Inf Divs around that time? It's possible that some personnel were hived off at that point for the Armd Div Gps/Coys.

    Another source would have been UK-trained MG and 4.2" Mor personnel in the replacement system.
     
  3. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    There were a lot of shenanigans re the Sp Bns in Italy. The Inf Divs that had started their journey to the Med via the Torch route had Sp Bns by summer of 1943, while those Divs that were already in the ME theatre had MG Bns. The Sp Bns were all converted to MG Bns by July 1944 for the most part, and as Sp Bns were a lot bigger in terms of personnel than the revised MG Bns there would have been scope for transfers no doubt. There's an intriguing mention in a Canadian report that 'in Italy Canadian forces tended to use a rather higher establishment' of the 4.2-in mortar, but no clue as to how.

    Gary
     
  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Notes from the Cheshire's regimental history:

    6 Cheshire had their mortar company from Sep 1944 - just the one. (They also received a pair of the rare 95mm infantry guns which they found rather useful.)

    7 Cheshire formed theirs around June 1944 "by the transfer to us of the personnel, officers and men, of the three infantry brigade support companies."

    And from the Middlesex history:

    2/7 Middlesex: "In August 1942, the Battalion moved to Shorncliffe Garrison and there learned that a new establishment had been worked out for machine-gun units. Instead of the four machine-gun companies, the Battalion was now to consist of three groups, each consisting of one M.M.G. company, one 4.2-inch mortar company, and one 20-mm anti-aircraft gun company. This involved the disbandment of "D" Company and its absorption into the othe three groups , which were formed around "A", "B" and "C" Companies."
    The narrative then goes on to refer to companies for a bit before settling on groups. Around May 1944, they started to reorganise to a 5 company battalion ( counting HQ Coy as one) which required making one mortar coy from three (the AA coys had been ditched already).

    That explains where the 'Group' designation comes from, but there's no indication that their B Gp did anything other than revert to B Coy. However, if other units also went from 10 coys to 5, it's possible that another Div's B Gp was simply transferred across to 6 Armd Div. Also, going from 3 to 1 mortar coys means the surplus could have been used to double them up?

    The Cheshire history states that 46 and 78 Divs had Support Groups, so perhaps 6 Armd Div's B Gp came from 78 Div's suppirt battalion? Will have to dig out Joslen tomorrow...
     
    Aixman likes this.
  5. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Its a possibility that the question on another forum does not know what they are talking about. I would like to see the orbat from December 44, to February 45. Has far has am aware, the 6 Armoured Division never had any Independent Machine Gun Company.
    I could be wrong.

    Has for 1st ( Middlesex ) Heavy Support Coy, who are they? The only Battalion that had heavy guns was the 9th. A detachment 126
    L.A.A. Regiment. If you don't mind me asking, what has 21 Army Group got to do with Italy? Not meaning to be thick here, but what is the meaning of being slated?
    Regards
    Stu.
     
  6. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Attached relevant page from Orders of Battle by Joslen.

    See entry towards bottom of page under "Inf";

    "B" Hy Sp Gp 19.12.44 - 11.02.45
    1 Hy Sp Coy * 12.02.45 - 31.08.45 (* MX)

    My ref re 21 Army Group was trying to flag up the difference, which I was already aware of, that Guards, 7th and 11th Armd Divs each had an Indep MG Coy, while 1st and 6th Armd Divs in Italy did not. 6th Armd Div did eventually have an infantry support unit, as detailed in Joslen, and that is what the query was about; where were they formed from, if they began life as "B" was there an "A", etc.

    A poster on the other forum, also posts here I think, found evidence for a "C" Coy in the same role in 6th Armd Div as well, for the last weeks of the war in Italy at least.

    Gary
     

    Attached Files:

  7. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    This is an interesting question. I went to Kemp's history of the Middlesex Regiment and there is no mention of this Heavy Support Group. I then looked at the regimental history of the Kensington Regiment, which is allied to the Middlesex Regiment and had a battalion in Italy. Again, there was no mention of such a company. Neither history mentions support for 6th Armoured Division. At this point in the war the M-G Battalions had Companies not Support Groups.
     
  8. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Heavy Support Companies: 1 Coy Dec 44-Aug 45
    WO 170/4792
    This is listed under Royal Artillery!
    2 Coy is WO 170/4793

    WO 204/7404 might also be of interest...
     
  9. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Aha!
    WO 170/5049 is 1 Hy Sp Coy Middlesex Regt Sep-Oct 1945
     
  10. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    To muddy the waters a bit, here is an order of battle for 6th Armoured Division on 9 April 1945:


    6th Armoured Division
    1st Derbyshire Yeomanry
    12th (SP), 104th Regiments, Royal Horse Artillery - Under V Corps
    152nd Field Regiment, RA - Under V Corps
    72nd Anti-Tank Regiment, RA
    51st Light AA Regiment, RA
    8th, 625th Field Squadrons, RE
    144th Field Park Squadron, RE
    1st Heavy Support Company (The Middlesex Regiment)
    ‘C’ Heavy Support Company

    26th Armoured Brigade
    16th/5th Lancers
    17th/21st Lancers
    2nd Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry

    1st Guards Infantry Brigade
    3rd Battalion, The Grenadier Guards
    3rd Battalion, The Welsh Guards
    1st Battalion, The Welch Regiment

    61st Infantry Brigade
    1st Battalion, The King’s Royal Rifle Corps
    2nd, 7th Battalions, The Rifle Brigade

    Note: The presence of 1st Heavy Support Company (The Middlesex Regiment) and 'C' Heavy Support Company.

    More confusion to follow with a three page scan from the regimental history of the Rifle Brigade!
     
  11. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Here is some information centered around the reorganization of the 61st Infantry Brigade in March 1945 from Hastings' history of the Rifle Brigade.

    RB01.jpg RB02.jpg RB03.jpg
     
  12. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    I also took a look at the Grenadier, Coldstream and Welsh Guards regimental histories as well as the Welch Regiment concerning any mention of Support Groups. Each regiment had a battalion in 1st Guards Brigade, which formed part of 6th Armoured Division during this period. I could find no mention of any support groups. I suspect, though, since the 61st Brigade was re-organized in March 1945 and the 1st Guard Brigade was also reorganized in March 1945, that there was a second Support Group (Company) formed in March 1945 in the 1st Guards Brigade. This could be the 1st Heavy Support Company? that would match the 2nd Heavy Support Company mentioned in the Rifle Brigade history.
     
  13. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Dryan,

    Thank you very much for doing the legwork in those books and posting the findings.

    With a slight sigh of relief it's confirmed a couple of queries I had, one being that 61 Bde kept a Mot Bn, for a time at least. This format is outlined in an Oct44 WE for an Indep Mot Bde Sig Sec, I think I thought it was possibly 2RB though. As the other two Bns were nominally on Inf Bn WE they would need MMG Pls, while the Mot Bn already had two such subunits, which ties in with the other theatre specific WE for the Heavy Sp Coy with two MMG and two 4.2-in Mrtr Pls (which is otherwise almost identical to the Indep MG Coy WE used in NWE).

    The orbat you've posted from Apr45 is the one also up in the other forum. I'd agree that 'C' Coy was then most likely formed using personnel of the Guards to furnish MMG and heavy mortar support, which was provided by MG Bns in Inf Divs proper, but not catered for in Bdes outside of Divs. Possibly the original 2nd Hy Sp Coy term came from a nod to 2nd Bn, if it sprang largely from that unit?

    Gary
     
  14. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Gary, thanks for your reply. What made me question the poster on the forum was the Order of Battle in MAILED FIST by Ken Ford.
    6th Armoured Division at War,40-45. Not sure if you have a copy, or have seen the order before? I will attach the pages. No mention at all of the Middlesex Regiment. On the following page, Notes: CHAPTER ONE he has had a look at Jolsen's book (thats something i will have to obtain).

    I would have looked at another book, but the spine split when i put it on on the scanner. Prepare to Move: With the 6th Armoured
    Division in Africa & Sicily, Frank Beckett.Not sure if that would be of any use.

    I have a interest in the Middlesex Regiment, so i think i will obtain the diaries that idler has mentioned.
    Stu.

    CCF12052017_0002.jpg
    CCF12052017_0004.jpg
    CCF12052017_0005.jpg
     
  15. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Aixman likes this.
  16. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Thanks for the scans Stuart. I do have 'Mailed Fist' and went straight to the index, but no mention as you say, and I've not seen the other title. It is odd where the 'Middlesex' appellation comes from if the Heavy Support unit was actually raised from Riflemen.

    2/7 Middlesex were on a Support Battalion organisation till Apr/May 1944, which I presume is where the WD entries come from. I am now intrigued though as to what Heavy Support Company, 1 Company, RA was.

    Gary
     
  17. idler

    idler GeneralList

    If the dates on the record are right, the 'Middlesex' title is post-war, so it could be a consequence of cross-posting as old sweats went home and units were wound down or amalgamated. Possibly...
     
  18. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Thanks idler, my Grandfather's regiment by the way.;) Some more legwork done regarding 'MX', or Middlesex. No mention at all in both of the Lancers, or SWIFT AND BOLD. I even had a look in the book below. I'm sure that you guys who have a wealth of knowledge, are aware of these books. I wounder if Andy has any of the War diaries in question? He normally appears when needed.

    Gary, I'm willing to obtain the diaries that you are after in your post 16. Perhaps we can exchange different diaries etc?
    I do have all of the diaries of 2/7 MX regiment from May 43 through till Dec 45. More on the B Sp Group that he was in. None on
    A & C. Lets hope the muddy waters can be clarified as soon as possible.

    Please clock the second attachment, if this chap does not know what was in the Middlesex Regiment, then we may be in pickle.
    It looks as if the books do not have the answer.

    Regards
    Stu.

    CCF14052017.jpg
    CCF14052017_0001.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2017

Share This Page