65 Years Ago Italians Invade Egypt

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by spidge, Sep 14, 2005.

  1. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Meant to post this yesterday on the 65th anniversary of the Italians move into Egypt 13/9/1940.

    They initially moved 5 divisions and 200 odd tanks against a much smaller force and yet 3 months later there wasn't an Italian still on Egyptian soil except for prisoners

    The 6th division, my Fathers outfit, belted them at Bardia and took 45,000 prisoners for the loss of 500 which was a low number as long as you weren't one of them.

    Tobruk was next with another 25,000 prisoners for the loss of 450 British & Aussies.

    Australians then capture Derna & Benghazi in quick succession then 25,000 retreating Italians surrender to 3,000 British.

    Anthony Eden makes a speech parodying Winston Churchill's famous 'Battle of Britain' speech. He says "Never has so much been surrendered, by so many, to so few".

    150,000+ prisoners / 400+ tanks / 700+ Artillery pieces.

    Where did it all go wrong for the Italians?

    Look forward to a few interesting posts.
     
  2. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    I wrote an article on this campaign for "Europa Magazine," which is put out by GR/D games with their wargames, and it's on MagWeb. That will give a lot of background. I can't recall the website URL. I'll try to find it. o_O
     
  3. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Originally posted by Kiwiwriter@Sep 15 2005, 11:06 PM
    I wrote an article on this campaign for "Europa Magazine," which is put out by GR/D games with their wargames, and it's on MagWeb. That will give a lot of background. I can't recall the website URL. I'll try to find it. o_O
    [post=39056]Quoted post[/post]


    Thanks David.

    Found it at: http://www.magweb.com/sample/seuropa/seu55daw.htm
     
  4. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by spidge+Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM-->(spidge @ Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Sep 15 2005, 11:06 PM
    I wrote an article on this campaign for "Europa Magazine," which is put out by GR/D games with their wargames, and it's on MagWeb. That will give a lot of background. I can't recall the website URL. I'll try to find it.  o_O
    [post=39056]Quoted post[/post]


    Thanks David.

    Found it at: http://www.magweb.com/sample/seuropa/seu55daw.htm
    [post=39058]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    Oh, great. I can't remember where the damn thing is...let me know what you think of it. :)
     
  5. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Originally posted by Kiwiwriter+Sep 15 2005, 11:56 PM-->(Kiwiwriter @ Sep 15 2005, 11:56 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by spidge@Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM
    <!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Sep 15 2005, 11:06 PM
    I wrote an article on this campaign for "Europa Magazine," which is put out by GR/D games with their wargames, and it's on MagWeb. That will give a lot of background. I can't recall the website URL. I'll try to find it.  o_O
    [post=39056]Quoted post[/post]


    Thanks David.

    Found it at: http://www.magweb.com/sample/seuropa/seu55daw.htm
    [post=39058]Quoted post[/post]

    Oh, great. I can't remember where the damn thing is...let me know what you think of it. :)
    [post=39064]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    Great descriptive and in depth narrative David.

    I have printed it off for Mum to read.

    Dad was 6th Div / 19th Brigade / 2/8th. What a baptism of fire for them with an historical victory. It was fate that he was hit by a mortar and didn't get to Greece.

    Six months later after hospitalisation in Egypt, he was home to the Heidelberg Repatriation Hospital in Victoria for another 3 months. He retired after 30 years at the Reserve Bank of Australia and passed away in 1982.
     
  6. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by spidge+Sep 15 2005, 10:59 AM-->(spidge @ Sep 15 2005, 10:59 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by Kiwiwriter@Sep 15 2005, 11:56 PM
    Originally posted by spidge@Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM
    <!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Sep 15 2005, 11:06 PM
    I wrote an article on this campaign for "Europa Magazine," which is put out by GR/D games with their wargames, and it's on MagWeb. That will give a lot of background. I can't recall the website URL. I'll try to find it.  o_O
    [post=39056]Quoted post[/post]


    Thanks David.

    Found it at: http://www.magweb.com/sample/seuropa/seu55daw.htm
    [post=39058]Quoted post[/post]

    Oh, great. I can't remember where the damn thing is...let me know what you think of it. :)
    [post=39064]Quoted post[/post]

    Great descriptive and in depth narrative David.

    I have printed it off for Mum to read.

    Dad was 6th Div / 19th Brigade / 2/8th. What a baptism of fire for them with an historical victory. It was fate that he was hit by a mortar and didn't get to Greece.

    Six months later after hospitalisation in Egypt, he was home to the Heidelberg Repatriation Hospital in Victoria for another 3 months. He retired after 30 years at the Reserve Bank of Australia and passed away in 1982.
    [post=39066]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]Thanks for that note.

    And thank you for your father's service to Crown and Country. He was lucky in the long run...6th Division took a pounding in Greece and Crete, and he might have been killed. I'm glad he got to live a long and happy life in peace.
     
  7. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor

    Yes, very good read, a good in depth and informative account of the campaign, I enjoyed reading it. It has increased my knowledge of the campaign a lot.
     
  8. Dac

    Dac Senior Member

    Excellent article David, I think Gen. Richard O'Connor is one of the most underrated generals in history. If not for his capture in North Africa in 1941, it's possible he would have been the one to lead the British in Western Europe 1944-45.

    An account I have of the Nibeiwa battle has General Malleti taking a main cannon round in the chest, don't know if that's true or not.

    The Australians gave great service in the deserts of North Africa spidge, the Allies were lucky to have such fine soldiers. One of my moms' uncles was in the U.S. Army on New Guinea during WW II and I imagine he served alongside Australians.
     
  9. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Dac@Sep 15 2005, 02:55 PM
    Excellent article David, I think Gen. Richard O'Connor is one of the most underrated generals in history. If not for his capture in North Africa in 1941, it's possible he would have been the one to lead the British in Western Europe 1944-45.

    An account I have of the Nibeiwa battle has General Malleti taking a main cannon round in the chest, don't know if that's true or not.

    The Australians gave great service in the deserts of North Africa spidge, the Allies were lucky to have such fine soldiers. One of my moms' uncles was in the U.S. Army on New Guinea during WW II and I imagine he served alongside Australians.
    [post=39074]Quoted post[/post]

    Thanks for the note...I agree about O'Connor...he should not have been sent to relieve Neame in mid-battle. His loss was devastating to the British. I think if he had not been captured, Crusader would not have misfired, and Gazala would not have been such an appalling mess.

    Maletti was killed at Nibeiwa, alongside his son, but whether from a cannon shot or a bullet, I don't recall. I have it in my article.

    The Australians were an elite force. I am glad that the British recently unveiled a memorial to them in London. And I know ANZAC Day is pretty big in London, with a parade.
     
  10. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Dac@Sep 15 2005, 06:55 PM
    Excellent article David, I think Gen. Richard O'Connor is one of the most underrated generals in history. If not for his capture in North Africa in 1941, it's possible he would have been the one to lead the British in Western Europe 1944-45.
    [post=39074]Quoted post[/post]

    But he did manage to escape and was well enough regarded to be given command of VIII Corps.
     
  11. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by angie999+Sep 19 2005, 12:55 PM-->(angie999 @ Sep 19 2005, 12:55 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dac@Sep 15 2005, 06:55 PM
    Excellent article David, I think Gen. Richard O'Connor is one of the most underrated generals in history. If not for his capture in North Africa in 1941, it's possible he would have been the one to lead the British in Western Europe 1944-45.
    [post=39074]Quoted post[/post]

    But he did manage to escape and was well enough regarded to be given command of VIII Corps.
    [post=39212]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    Yes, he did, and I have heard varying arguments as to how well he did with 8th Corps. Max Hastings said he was "out of touch," but Hastings doesn't like much about the Allied war effort in World War II. I'd like a more accurate account.


    I'm glad he got back in the war, though.
     
  12. Dac

    Dac Senior Member

    Originally posted by angie999+Sep 19 2005, 09:55 AM-->(angie999 @ Sep 19 2005, 09:55 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dac@Sep 15 2005, 06:55 PM
    Excellent article David, I think Gen. Richard O'Connor is one of the most underrated generals in history. If not for his capture in North Africa in 1941, it's possible he would have been the one to lead the British in Western Europe 1944-45.
    [post=39074]Quoted post[/post]

    But he did manage to escape and was well enough regarded to be given command of VIII Corps.
    [post=39212]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]Did he escape? I assumed he was liberated when British troops overran the POW camp he was in.
     
  13. ariete42

    ariete42 Junior Member

    (Kiwiwriter @ Sep 15 2005, 01:56 PM) [post=39064]Originally posted by spidge+Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM-->(spidge @ Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Sep 15 2005, 11:06 PM
    I wrote an article on this campaign for "Europa Magazine," which is put out by GR/D games with their wargames, and it's on MagWeb. That will give a lot of background. I can't recall the website URL. I'll try to find it.  o_O
    <div align="right">[post=39056]Quoted post[/post]</div>



    Thanks David.

    Found it at: http://www.magweb.com/sample/seuropa/seu55daw.htm
    <div align="right">[post=39058]Quoted post[/post]</div>
    [/b]
    Oh, great. I can't remember where the damn thing is...let me know what you think of it. :)
    [/b]
    Italian readers bitterly criticized the article claiming that the lack of references to the Italian side of the hill, and of the story, makes of it a very lopsided introduction to the campaign. As a matter of fact, while the narrative is finely written, the absence of Italian sources voicing their version of the facts is quite deeply felt in this article.

    I could provide more material to add to the text to make Italian readers happier with it... in case David wants to entice happier readers on this side of the Alps, :)
     
  14. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (Kufra @ Dec 10 2005, 10:17 PM) [post=42946](Kiwiwriter @ Sep 15 2005, 01:56 PM) [post=39064]Originally posted by spidge+Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM-->(spidge @ Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Sep 15 2005, 11:06 PM
    I wrote an article on this campaign for "Europa Magazine," which is put out by GR/D games with their wargames, and it's on MagWeb. That will give a lot of background. I can't recall the website URL. I'll try to find it.  o_O
    <div align="right">[post=39056]Quoted post[/post]</div>



    Thanks David.

    Found it at: http://www.magweb.com/sample/seuropa/seu55daw.htm
    <div align="right">[post=39058]Quoted post[/post]</div>
    [/b]
    Oh, great. I can't remember where the damn thing is...let me know what you think of it. :)
    [/b]
    Italian readers bitterly criticized the article claiming that the lack of references to the Italian side of the hill, and of the story, makes of it a very lopsided introduction to the campaign. As a matter of fact, while the narrative is finely written, the absence of Italian sources voicing their version of the facts is quite deeply felt in this article.

    I could provide more material to add to the text to make Italian readers happier with it... in case David wants to entice happier readers on this side of the Alps, :)
    [/b]
    Is that more palatable to the Italian readers with the Italian version of events?

    These may not have the level of "truth" as you may like us to believe either?

    Descriptions of events may differ whomever the writer is attempting to please or appease, however the collective surrender of your troops in the final analysis is evidence (in most cases) of their unwillingness to continue the fight against aggressive and numerically inferior numbers.

    My father was at Bardia & Tobruk 2/8th 19th brigade 6th Div as were many of his friends and I would prefer to believe his/their account of events.
     
  15. ariete42

    ariete42 Junior Member

    (spidge @ Dec 10 2005, 12:49 PM) [post=42947](Kufra @ Dec 10 2005, 10:17 PM) [post=42946](Kiwiwriter @ Sep 15 2005, 01:56 PM) [post=39064]Originally posted by spidge+Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM-->(spidge @ Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Sep 15 2005, 11:06 PM
    I wrote an article on this campaign for "Europa Magazine," which is put out by GR/D games with their wargames, and it's on MagWeb. That will give a lot of background. I can't recall the website URL. I'll try to find it.  o_O
    <div align="right">[post=39056]Quoted post[/post]</div>



    Thanks David.

    Found it at: http://www.magweb.com/sample/seuropa/seu55daw.htm
    <div align="right">[post=39058]Quoted post[/post]</div>
    [/b]
    Oh, great. I can't remember where the damn thing is...let me know what you think of it. :)
    [/b]
    Italian readers bitterly criticized the article claiming that the lack of references to the Italian side of the hill, and of the story, makes of it a very lopsided introduction to the campaign. As a matter of fact, while the narrative is finely written, the absence of Italian sources voicing their version of the facts is quite deeply felt in this article.

    I could provide more material to add to the text to make Italian readers happier with it... in case David wants to entice happier readers on this side of the Alps, :)
    [/b]
    Is that more palatable to the Italian readers with the Italian version of events?

    These may not have the level of "truth" as you may like us to believe either?

    Descriptions of events may differ whomever the writer is attempting to please or appease, however the collective surrender of your troops in the final analysis is evidence (in most cases) of their unwillingness to continue the fight against aggressive and numerically inferior numbers.

    My father was at Bardia & Tobruk 2/8th 19th brigade 6th Div as were many of his friends and I would prefer to believe his/their account of events.
    [/b]
    I'm sorry, I didn't intend to offend or peeve in any way. I apologize if I unintentionally did. Nor I mean to question anyone's personal experience. All the more reason when that experience and what we generally know about that event basically correspond. I'm ready to acknowledge this. For that matter, I'm not here to wave my country's flag or such nonsense.

    However, as an author of (petty tiny) historical articles myself I take the license of remarking that we shouldn't take all veterans say as gospel. Even though they are relatives of ours. For a number of good reasons, one of which is that the big picture of historical events and the set of causes why things went this way and not that way is larger and more complicated than the slit trench view (assuming the vets were in slit trenches and not in comfortable rear area positions, as many of them happened to be. I am not speaking of your father here). What the veterans can tell us about their experience may be valuable and important, but it's just a fragment of truth.

    Besides, articles and books should never be written to please or appease anybody. Authors write to narrate and hopefully cast some light on historical facts. In military history, bothering to take a glance also at what the people on the other side of the hill did and how they were faring is never wasted time, and helps reconstruct a credible and multi-faceted historical truth, or the nearest thing to it.
     
  16. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    (Kufra @ Dec 10 2005, 06:17 AM) [post=42946](Kiwiwriter @ Sep 15 2005, 01:56 PM) [post=39064]Originally posted by spidge+Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM-->(spidge @ Sep 15 2005, 09:22 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Sep 15 2005, 11:06 PM
    I wrote an article on this campaign for "Europa Magazine," which is put out by GR/D games with their wargames, and it's on MagWeb. That will give a lot of background. I can't recall the website URL. I'll try to find it.  o_O
    <div align="right">[post=39056]Quoted post[/post]</div>



    Thanks David.

    Found it at: http://www.magweb.com/sample/seuropa/seu55daw.htm
    <div align="right">[post=39058]Quoted post[/post]</div>
    [/b]
    Oh, great. I can't remember where the damn thing is...let me know what you think of it. :)
    [/b]
    Italian readers bitterly criticized the article claiming that the lack of references to the Italian side of the hill, and of the story, makes of it a very lopsided introduction to the campaign. As a matter of fact, while the narrative is finely written, the absence of Italian sources voicing their version of the facts is quite deeply felt in this article.

    I could provide more material to add to the text to make Italian readers happier with it... in case David wants to entice happier readers on this side of the Alps, :)
    [/b]
    My answer to the Italian readers is that I can't read or speak Italian, I don't have any translations of Italian works on the subject, don't have the money or time to go to Italy to find them, and don't have research assistants who read Italian to read this material and translate it for me. When I get them, I'll put them in my web page on World War II, where they belong. As I have often pointed out to other readers who fume about my work being "incomplete," or "padded," or "plagiarism," I do all my work by myself in my limited free time, with very little financial or material support. In fact, my wife quit her job in October in disgust (unable to take the 2-hour commute or being moved from her office to a cubicle), so I have even less money to work with, as sole breadwinner.

    I am very aware that the Italians got a raw deal in the history books, as have the Chinese, and to a lesser extent, the Dutch, Belgians, and Poles. On my web page is posted a complaint from an Italian reader that my page "dishonored" the Italian Army, ending with his demand that "some day you come face to face with those you have dishonored." I answered him, and he admitted that his real problem was that he had spent the whole day looking for information on the web about El Alamein, and had only found the usual jokes. I would point him and others at the "Comando Supremo" web page -- I'm a member there, but I don't post much -- which pretty much covers the Italian war effort chapter and verse, complete with downloadable sound bytes of "Giovinezza."

    Tell your friends I'm sorry I didn't have enough Italian accounts, but if they bring me some in English, I'll use them. About the only ones I know of Prince Valerio Borghese's memoir of his midget submarine days (which I relied on in writing their story) and the memoirs of an Italian Army doctor who survived the Stalingrad pocket and returned to fight alongside the Allies from 1943 to 1945.

    I recently got "Mussolini's Roman Empire" "Days of Emperor and Clown" on the Ethiopian war, and the Ciano Diaries, which help, but they're not enough. I would like some good information about Italian airmen, specifically the Co-Belligerent Air Force, which flew in support of Tito's partisans, and the Italian troops who went over to Tito in 1943 during the German takeover in Croatia. Oddly enough, there is good information about the Italians at Stalingrad, because a number of them survived that horror. I haven't found anything good on the Italian defense of East Africa, or either the RSI or Co-Belligerent armies.

    Sorry. I do what I can with what little I have. :(
     
  17. Desert Dog

    Desert Dog Member

    Speaking of which. Where were all of the Italian POW taken and held? Was it in the Middle East or in East Africa?
     
  18. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

  19. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Speaking of which. Where were all of the Italian POW taken and held? Was it in the Middle East or in East Africa?
    There was an Italian POW Camp in Swindon next to the County Ground.
    (Home of STFC)
    Mum used live near there.
    Here is an article that mentions it.(although Kembrey St isn't really by the County Ground.)
    .http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/02/a8894802.shtml

    Italian POWs
    At the top to Kembrey Street there was prisoner of war camp, mostly full
    of Italians. We would go up there and shout through the fence at them and
    they would shout back in their best English they could come up with. They
    all had a brownish coloured uniform but some, who were considered dangerous
    had markers on them, a yellow spot on their front, on their legs or back
    so if they tried to escape the guards could aim for those points. When we
    went up there they tried to persuade us to bring our sisters up (if we had
    a sister), things like that. The Italian?s used to work on local farms, there
    were also some Germans. A lot of the Italian and German POWs didn't go home
    after the war, they stayed on in Swindon
     

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