5th Canadian Armoured Division in Italy

Discussion in 'Canadian' started by gpo son, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    My point has always been that 5th Canadian armoured division had nothing to do with your being shipped to Italy in support of the 1st CID. In fact it was Leese/Alexander who refused to give up the 1st CAB to the Canadian Corp. I gave you a couple of reasons 1] ability 2] reluctance to have all Canadian formations serve together.
    It certainly had nothing to do with a fight/disagreement/brawl between the 11th and 3rd brigades or the 5th CAB refusal to take on the 7th armoured's junk.
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    GPO's son

    Well - you go right ahead with your dissertation along those lines of both Alex and Leese' discrimination against the Canadians - and I shall go on believing that we were called in owing to a change of function for 1st CID to an assault Division - and 5th AD not fitting that bill being a light armoured outfit - and strangely the same discriminating
    duo finally allowed the 5th Ad to join in alongside the 1st CID in fact on our left flank
    at the Gothic Line- and again after Rimini - but hey who am I to break down your
    predudices......

    Cheers
     
  3. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    On the contrary Tom this was never intended to be a dissertation. I came here to find out new things about the 5th CAD and most of what I found was based on hearsay and opinion, I; therefore, on your advice went back to original sources (like the CMP series), men who fought with the formation, the few recollections, I had from my dad and Verified most of what I thought to be true, is true.
    As for discrimination that was certainly not the case, 8th Army wanted the 1st CID and 1st CAB to use as they pleased because they were damed good. It also seems to me that after the 'Daidem show' all the armoured divisions were re-roled as assault divisions because as you will attest single infantry Bde simply became to exhausted in the river crossings and urban fighting. 5th armoured division in the 16 months in the line more than proved its metal. and its infantry battalions registered casualty rates similar to those of other 8th army battalions
    All the formations I mentioned previously were in Italy by the end of May and all; but, the 1st Br AD were or had been in the line by then. 6th South African AD was under 1st Can Corp command from May 28th to June 8th; and took over the lead from the 1st CID on June 3rd at Anagni [south of Rome] . their motorized Bde and divisional Artillery relieved the 11 CIB on May 3 as well.
    Matt
     
  4. BrownN

    BrownN Junior Member

    Thanks for posting . . .
     
  5. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    So here's to the d-day dodgers off in sunny Italy. Because all we will hear tomorrow is....
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    GPO's son

    You have yourself a good trip to Italy - and enjoy the country and it's people but don't forget that the D Day dodgers who are still there - won't be leaving " as you look around the mountains in the cold and rain and see the scattered crosses - some without a name......"

    Cheers
     
  7. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    sorry Tom If I misled. I will unfortunately not be in Italy any time in the near future. But I do think of of the men that were killed on my dads guns on May 21st 2 weeks before the 'd-day'. Gns Peltier, Wunder, Stanton, and Bragg. My sister told of his tears on looking them when he visited in 1985. Posted war diary enteries in the other thread I follow closely document this Action In which My father narrowly escaped death. http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/canadian/40117-17th-canadian-field-regiment-rca-history.html
     
  8. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    GPO's son

    No apology needed as it is good to remember the dead - as I have been trying to point out on this day particularly - on another thread - to some argument..!
    as I did also on June 6th '44 sitting outside of ROME
    Cheers
     
  9. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Cheer to all of the you orginal D-Day Dodgers and on this day especailly those who never left
     
  10. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Cheer to all of the you orginal D-Day Dodgers and on this day especailly those who never left

    :poppy:
     
  11. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Tom
    When i realized I'd missed the lyrical reference as usual I had more homework to do so Here's a more Canadian version oddly they left out the the 5th CAD. Maybe they werent there. D-Day Dodgers of Canada - YouTube
     
  12. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    GPO's son

    It would appear that the main point of the article was the Sicilian Campaign which the 5th CAD did not participate - and I am quite sure that the article would be much more read if people like liberal had some knowledge of the History of the Italian
    Campaign and used much less filthy language.....

    Cheers
     
  13. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Fair enough Tom my dad would also have found the language offensive. I'd certainly have gotten the 'carbolic' or a good hiding.
    Can I ask you when did the song first appeared amoung the rank and file? Was there a Canadian version hanging around in the first Can Div or is that all just revsionist? Was it sung while marching, in canteens or regimental shows. I would love to hear your recollections.
    Matt
     
  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    gpo's son

    as I recall it came about before Rome was liberated and allegedly written by a member of 51st Div before they went off to the Uk for D Day- and there was a Canadian version which included the battles of Agira and Ortona - had a copy but is long gone now - it wasn't a regimental thing but sung when people wanted to sing - nothing official about it- and it became more relevant after the Normandy D Day when the idea spread that we are all cowards - and it was pointed out that 8th Army - in various forms had been fighting since Italy joined the war in June 1940 - FOUR years - with the Canadian contribution as of Sicily in July 1943 some eleven months before Normandy and many 8th Army Divisions also from Algiers as of November 1942 - eighteen months before Normandy and only three divisions and one Armoured bde from 8th Army leading the landings at Normandy the others of which very few were battle experienced albeit many younger men....this is why it was so annoying for anyone to call us D Day Dodgers.....
    Cheers
     
  15. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Tom
    I most certainly would have posted something on the 6th but must confess that the demands of modern life got in the way. Off and running at 6am to a corporate golf outing and didn't return until 8pm.
    Mind you, the good people who frequent this site are, in my view, the most aware of that date and also the most appreciative.
     
  16. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Tim-

    I have not the slightest complaint of people playing golf at anytime and i do realize that the majority of the members are mostly well aware of the DDay struggles and death
    which made me all the more puzzled that there were NO real acknowledgements of the date- but some people are determined to make a mountain out of it all....
    Cheers - and did you win ?
     
  17. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member

    Tom

    Highly doubtful that Tim would win. He sports a 32 handicap!
     
  18. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Tom
    and there was a Canadian version which included the battles of Agira and Ortona - had a copy but is long gone now - it wasn't a regimental thing but sung when people wanted to sing - nothing official about it- and it became more relevant after the Normandy D Day when the idea spread that we are all cowards - and it was pointed out that 8th Army - in various forms had been fighting since Italy joined the war in June 1940 - FOUR years - with the Canadian contribution as of Sicily in July 1943 some eleven months before Normandy

    My dad was proud to be a d-day dodger. I thought that he wore it as a badge of Honour rather than a term of derision...but I also thought it was one of those things you could call each other but an outsider had to be careful how they used the phrase. Kind of like 'he's my brother I can say what I want; but, you need to step off now'. Is that kind of how it went or am i off on my impression?
     
  19. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Below, a version of the song that my father would have approved of - clearly a section of it was added post facto. Actually, I never heard my father sing it - he never was a great fan of "irony".

    I had the privilege of listening to it being sung at a hotel near Cassino in May 2009 by a group of veterans including the late Major (Michael) Gibson-Horrocks, and Sgt (Ted) Doyle, (both 4 Royal Fusiliers).

    We’re the D-Day Dodgers, out in Italy!
    Always on the vino, always on the spree!
    Eighth Army skivers and the Yanks
    We go to war, in ties like swanks
    We are the D-Day Dodgers, in sunny Italy

    We landed at Salerno, a holiday with pay
    Jerry brought his bands out, to cheer us on our way
    Showed us all the sights and gave us tea
    We all sang songs and the beer was free
    We are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day dodged

    Salerno and Cassino were taken in our stride
    We did not go to fight there, we just went for the ride
    Anzio and Sangro are just names
    We only went to look for dames
    We are the D-Day Dodgers, in sunny Italy

    On our way to Florence, we had a lovely time
    We ran a bus to Rimini through the Gothic Line
    On to Bologna we did go
    Then went bathing in the Po
    For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy

    Looking round the hillsides, through the mist and rain
    See the scattered crosses, some that bear no name
    Heartbreak and toil and suffering gone
    The boys beneath, they slumber on
    We are the D-Day Dodgers, who’ll stay in Italy

    So listen all you people, over land and foam
    Even though we’ve parted, our hearts are close to home
    When we return we hope you’ll say
    “You did your little bit, though far away
    All of the D-Day Dodgers, way out there in Italy”
     
  20. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    gpo's son
    Your impression is very close - though we didn't get too many visitors so the problems never came up

    Richard - that is essentially the original version but the Canadians had another which encompassed their own battles on Sicily - Ortona - Liri Valley- Gothic etc - they left 6000 dodgers there in Italy

    Cheers
     

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