4th (Durham) Survey Regiment, RA

We're looking at the grid references in war diaries and with help from Rob we can place the four and six figure references on modern maps ..
BUT how do we interpret the 12 figure refs as in the example here...



Robin

 

Sorry about the image .. it is landscape in my files but got rotated ...
I've tried again but still rotated ...

R

 

Maps of Normandy campaign
Has anyone looked at the maps at
http://militarymaps.narod.ru/maps_e.html

Robin

 

Re 6th and 7th Survey Regiments R.A.

In the early months of the war the 4th Durham Survey Regiment war diaries record a steady stream of postings of men to OCTU and to assist other regiments with survey works.

On 5th December 1939 'Formation of cadre for new 7th Survey Regiment RA' A Major heads the cadre of 4 officers, RQMS, 3 TSMs, 4 Sgts, 8 Bdrs, 1 Clerk, 1 Storeman and 20 Gunners..... "W.O. Letter 20/Artillery/5608 (A.G.6(a))'

Has anyone sighted the 7th Survey Regt as early as this?

We have noted one gunner listed in the Nominal Roll of the Old Comrades Association as being posted in Dec 1939 one DIXON T.E. (happens to be the young man who was courting the sister of my mother in law )


Later War diary for ..1 May 1940 .... "Training Cadre, 7th Survey Regiment posted to 6th Survey Regiment, R.A."



Robin

 

Looking at 48 Battery War Diary for August 1944

part of the entry for 26 August 1944 reads " 0345 S Troop. Moved with 5AGRA column to VERNON area. Harboured at 380720'

This as the crossing of the Seine was being made ....
Thought they were on the banks of the river .. but that map ref is SW of the town centre .. so does 'harboured at' mean something like 'sheltered at' ?
(Map ref is VR380720 on Nord du Guerre grid)

Robin

PS

S Troop report at 1930 that 'Base in action on 6 mics. A quiet night' or perhaps not ....
one report has the following
*******According to the agreement concluded in the headquarters, the British 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division was designated to liberate Vernon and above all totake the bridge on the Seine.Regiment achieved the 'Neptune' operation, that's to say the assault crossing of
the Seine. This operation has been engraved in the military annals as a true achievement.2000 men discreetly gathered together in the streets of Vernon's center on the evening of August 25th. At 6 pm, the artillery set off in targetting the Germanpositions on the other bank. In 24 hours, 18 000 shells were fired towards theright bank where the German were entrenched. In the evening, a first attempt to
cross the still passable bridge failed. The soldiers took a rest as they could lyingin the streets or around the church.

Crossing the Seine river : a Feat
On August 26th, 1944, from 4 am on, in the dark, soldiers crossed not without difficulty the damaged bridge. At dawn, an artificial fog
took over to hide the troops crossing the river on the bridge or in assault boats. The two first boats were sunk because the fog was
clearing. British soldiers then made headway on the other bank with varying fortunes. Some met a strong resistance and endure
casualties, others reached their target without difficulty.
At 4 pm on August 26th, the 43rd Wessex Division occupies the positions that had been set. In front of the church, 'David', the first class
9 light floating bridge built by the Engineers was finished. Thanks to it, light vehicles could cross the river to support troops.
On August 27th, after a stormy night, British soldiers went on towards Gisors, on the Tilly road. There, the infantry collided with the
German 49th Infantry Division, which kept reinforcing since August 21st. Casualties were significant. The same day, the Bailey bridge
was built, in 28 hours only. Its completion was decisive, heavy vehicles up to 40 tons could now cross the river. 770 British tanks would
cross the Seine in three days.
On this same August 27th, the 4th Wiltshire entered Giverny. The village was entirely liberated the next day, after several hours of
fighting.

 

Interesting. Thanks for posting that Robin. As you know, Oli was in 'S' Troop. My other great Uncle, Bill, was attached to the 43rd Wessex Division.

 

There is more about 'S' troop in the 48 Battery war diary and several map references mean we can pinpoint where the BHQ and S troop were on several days before and after the Vernon crossing ..... will email you.

The battle at Vernon is well covered on the Worcester Regiment pages ... at
http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/h_vernon

Robin

 

Cheers, thanks Robin. I received my grandfather's service records so I have been researching those quite a bit. However, my focus will be back to Oli shortly.

 

Keren February March 1941

Prompted by a discussion about the battle of Keren/Cheren I'm posting this note here as well


Here is an extract from the personal diary of my father in law Clarrie ... at this time Sgt/Sur HIRD C E of 'R' Troop 4th Durham Survey Regiment.

By way of background the 4th was a TA regiment set up in Gateshead in early 1937 and took in only selected men to train as surveyors and then feed them on to be OCTU candidates if/when war was declared.

Early in 1939 with war on the horizon the catchment was expanded to enable the embodiment of a full Survey Regiment of Officers, NCO's and Surveyors. They were over subscribed and late in 1939 drafted out a core of men to form the 6th Survey Regiment.

Clarrie joined in April 1939 and qualified as Surveyor later that year. On declaration of war the regiment drafted in all the supporting men needed for active service. The regiment also accelerated the technical training - Clarrie passed his Surveyor tests and was rapidly promoted to Bombardier and then L/Sgt. His father (also CEH) had been a test driver for Rover before the Great War and served in the RNAS (Isle of Grain) on MT Mechanic duties so it was no surprise that Clarrie jr was assigned to MT Duties and 'got his gun' as they moved the MT to the port for embarkation in October 1940.

Originally the regiment was being readied for movement to France but in May 1940 all changed and they were rapidly put to work surveying defensive positions in England extending their work on Coastal batteries and RA ranges to include more defensive positions and the detail of stop lines in case of invasion.

An intensive training programme in the Autumn of 1940 prepared them for the move to N Africa - arriving in Egypt in late December (advance party with MT on 26th and Main party on 31st) .... they barely had time to collect all the MT and stores before 'Y' Troop ( Flash Spotting) was sent forward to Sudan and Erirtea on 11 January 1941.

The Sound Rangers of 'R' Troop had time to acclimatise and followed on 11 February.

The War Diary for Y Troop is attached and unusually for this Regiment includes a nominal roll for all ranks, list of casualties and list of vehicles.

We've not found a War Dairy for 'R' Troop....

Robin

 

Clarrie Hird Diary page for Feb 1941

 

Finally bought a copy for Margaret as a B'day present .. decided she'd enjoy it more now than waiting till between Christmas and New Year .. fate of many 8th Army babes to be born in December 1944 .. shows when the men got leave pre D Day

Turns out to be a brilliant buy not only because Massimo M-C has done a massive piece of work (with full references) thus allowing us to sort out who was where doing what for the survey regiments we are interested in - 4th for Margaret's dad BQMS Clarrie Hird plus 6th/1st and 1st Independent for Uncle Tom Dixon
but she's also found that both of them are mentioned by name!

Inevitably we have records of some details not included due to Clarries own diaries ... eg The Advance Party of the 4th Durham sailed for Egypt on the Scythia from Liverpool on October 30th 1940 .. this was after he had taken the transport to the docks in South Wales


I'm emailing Massimo M-C with the extra details.

and will see about posting some extracts from the diaries here.

 

Anything on Oliver Stockton?

 

Margaret has been reading bits out to me and it's absolutely stuffed with information about the 4th Durham . She hasn't mentioned your Uncle Oli ..

 

News about availability of Mangilli-Climpson's 'Larkhill's Wartime Locators - RA Survey in the Second Wold War' published in 2007.

This is now available as download from the publisher at a much reduced price... £4.99 .... amazing value ...
see
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Larkhills-Wartime-Locators/p/1333/

 

Regiment Advance Party October 1940 to January 1941

The story of the Advance Party of the regiment is missing from both the regimental history (Z Location) and Massimo Magnelli Climpson's book on the wartime survey regiments. We have been in touch with Jim Whetton (who published the 2nd edition of Z location) and Massimo. Neither of them recall any records of the advance party.

Our files left to Margaret by her mother contain her father's diaries and some letters from WW2. These include clear evidence of the advance party ... With help from many on this forum and elsewhere we are expanding on our documents to put their story down on the record. Nothing exciting but it will, we hope, add to the life of the men at that time.

We'll be posting documents and comments on this thread over the next few days.

Attached is the War Diary of The 4th Durham Survey Regiment TA RA for October 1940. The last entry records departure of the Advance Party ... but until recently we assumed this was only to smooth things at the port for the main party ... now it becomes clear that they were in fact meant to be an advance party to arrive in Egypt in good time to prepare the later arrival of the main part of the regiment ... things did not turn at as planned ... does any smell a SNAFU?


Robin and Margaret (daughter of Sgt HIRD sgt i/c MT and advance party )

 

Advance Party
For this message we refer to the diary of Margaret's father Clarrie Hird (1917 -1977) a Gateshead man born and bred a Northumbrian like almost all the NCO's and OR's of the regiment until September 1940 when drafts of some 200 men were added from other sources.

On Sunday 6 October 1940 Clarrie (Lance Sargeant Hird C. E.) noted in his personal diary that 'All drivers I.C. went on leave'. He went on 7 days leave on the Monday. Returning late on the next Monday he found that he was 'put strangly (sic) in charge of M.T. Party'. see attached -Winnie is his fiance and later wife.

Shortly after that he records they drive over to Newport where they stay for two nights before returning to High Wycombe by train on Friday 25 October. He is promoted to full Sargeant - he got his gun.

We have now established that three transport ships sailed from Newport (Delius, Port Wyndham and Martland) to join the same convoy as the advance party - WS.4 (also known as WS.4A and sometime split into WS.4 fast and slow). We think the Delius is the most likely ship to be transporting the MT for this regiment

The MT men return in time for a good dance and then leave on the night of the 29th ...'Destination unknown'. Still time for a last drink of champagne with his fellow sargeants. - Alan, Peter, George and Norman.

Clarrie is in cabin B2 on board the 'Cunard SCYTHIA' on Thursday 31st October. He does not record much about the voyage on her to Cape Town and Durban with many entries being simply 'At sea'. However he did write letters home which were posted in Freetown about the 10/11 November.

R&M


View attachment Diary of Clarence E HIRD October 1940.docx View attachment Diary of Clarence E HIRD October 1940 part 2.docx

 

Advance Party - letter home 29 October 1940

Letters home and from family were most important to the men overseas and Clarrie's diaries record the hundreds that he wrote over his time from August 1939 to April 1946.

He, his parents and his fiance/wife numbered each letter to keep track of which letters and AMLC's actually arrived .. no doubt it also helped to put them into order. Margaret remembers that the cupboard under the wash stand at her grandparent's house in Gateshead was stuffed full of those letters. Sadly almost all were lost when her grandparents died. However we do have a dozen or so of them.

Attached is part of Clarrie's last letter home to his parents before leaving for Liverpool on the night of 29 October 1940. - Think it skipped past the censor.

R&M

OOPS the current file is too large ...
here is P1 ... the sentence continues 'the advance party that is all the transport men. '

View attachment 118794

 

Clarrie's letter from Freetown


View attachment C E Hird letter to parents 9 November 1940 from R M S Scythia at Freetown part 1.docx View attachment C E Hird letter to parents 9 November 1940 from R M S Scythia at Freetown part 2.docx View attachment C E Hird letter to parents 9 November 1940 from R M S Scythia at Freetown part 3.docx

 

Hi

I've just found this thread after doing a search on Google. I'm looking for information regarding my grandfather, who I believe was either in 4th Durham Survey or 9th Survery Regiment from looking at discharge papers - 9th is on his discharge papers, but I also have an invitation to the 4th's Re-union dinner on 6th September 1946 which is clearly addressed to my grandfather.

Would I be able to ask Robin to check to see if there is mention of a William Thomas Lerpiniere on the nominal roll?

Thank you in advance,

Anthony.

 

Yes he is
4610721 Sgt/Sig Joined 12.9.42

R