49th Battery (12th Field) and 253rd Battery (17th Medium)

Andy

A/E Bty was what was known as a linked battery, it was a combination of A Bty and E Bty, linked in (I think, but haven't checked 1938 or 9 and were unlinked later in the war.

Nothing to do with the lettering of Batteries in the training pamphlets.

Just a bit more confusion for the pot.

Phil

 

Cheers Phil.....When I look at the RA diaries listed in the WO 167 series (BEF) there are some odd titles, especially in the batteries.

 

Another question for you chaps!

I've come across the term "Q Bty ARTY/R" - what does ARTY/R mean?

 

Another question for you chaps!

I've come across the term "Q Bty ARTY/R" - what does ARTY/R mean?

Arty/R = Artillery Reconnaissance.
Best
Rob

 

Thanks for that Rob - much appreciated.

I have another(!) question that's become apparent as a result of your answer; what would Artillery Reconnaissance involve? Would it involve any shooting? Or is it more to do with a small detachment of troops moving forward to scout out potential targets for the Battery/Regiment?

Please excuse my ignorance on this; I'm a complete artillery novice!

 

Thanks for that Rob - much appreciated.

I have another(!) question that's become apparent as a result of your answer; what would Artillery Reconnaissance involve? Would it involve any shooting? Or is it more to do with a small detachment of troops moving forward to scout out potential targets for the Battery/Regiment?

Please excuse my ignorance on this; I'm a complete artillery novice!

51MMO
Arty/R Shoots
were the ranging of the guns using AOP's (Aircraft)
for an agreed planed shoot, using an agreed point for the opening rounds (APM),
then futher ajustments called over by the aircraft onto target.
Best
Rob

 

Top Man Rob - thanks very much!

I have no further questions (at this moment in time) your honour!

 

Rob

Not quite right, Arty/R involved the co-operation of the guns with RAF aircraft dedicated to this task and not the air OP's which performed a similar role abut used different aircraft (Arty/R = Reconnaissance spitfires and possibly (early war) Lysanders. Air OP = Austers).

Phil

 

Thanks for that Phil, your input is much appreciated.

Incidentally, my Grandfather was wounded in a counter barrage bombadrment at some point in 1944. He's told me that he was transferred to an American military hospital in the "Naples area". He's adament that it was an American hospital as he claims that he was offered a Purple Heart, which being a British soldier he refused outright! Would anyone have any recommendations as to how I could go about locating some sort of record that would list him as a casualty? I have contacted the American archives and am currently awaiting a response.

 

Hello All,

I'm in the process of trying to uncover further information about my Grandfather, Bombardier G H Land, and his time spent in the Army during the Second World War. He served in the Royal Artillery, spending 3 years on Malta during the siege, followed by a rest and refit in North Africa, before moving on to fight his way up through Italy. I have made enquiries with the Firepower Museum at Greenwich and have managed to obtain copies of the war diaries for the regiments (12th Field and 17th Medium) in which he served. Whilst these are excellent in the detail that they do provide, they are a summary and consequently only really scratch the surface; I want to go deeper and find out more. I know that he was in was in the 49th Battery of the 12th Field and the 253rd Battery of the 17th Medium. I am looking for any information/books/references related to the batterys/regiments in which he served and would really appreciate any guidance/assistance that is offered.

I'm brand new to all this so hopefully I've managed to work the system correctly!


HI 51MMO I also am new at this. I have been on a similar quest to yours regarding your grandfather Bmd Land. My starting point was my birth certificate which shows that on August 8th 1940 my father Gunner S Simm
was a member of 6/23 battery 12th Field Regt stationed at Larkhill, Wiltshire. My next source was the British Army Personnel Centre MS Support Division which provided quite extensive records from his original enlistment in Sheffield in 1931 on a 3/9 to his final transfer to class 'Z' Royal Army Reserve (Class 'A' Release) in Jan 1946. I live in Australia but on a recent holiday in London I visited the National Archives in Kew and found parts of the 12th Field Regiment's War Diary held under piece ref
WO 166/1471 (1939 Sept to 1940 Sept). The diary states that the regiment is at Larkhill doing duty as Depot Regt to the School of Artillery. At this juncture the regt seems to consist of a HQ and 2 batteries the 6/23rd and the 49/91st. Post Dunkirk they continued as Depot Regt but were involved also in intense activity in providing defence against possible enemy paratroopers and invasion and as a reception area for the BEF evacuated from Flanders, elements of which took over the 6/23rd barracks The 6/23rd was to stand by with 6 sections of 2 guns each as part of "Wiltshire Strike Force". The closing item in this diary states "49/91st battery mobilization. W.O. UPT No79/Mob/4026/89(AG5Mob) of 25/9/1940. One battery of 12th Field Rgt(that in Command Reserve) will mobilize under supervision of HQrs Southern Command and will be prepared to proceed overseas to a tropical climate by 0001hrs 9th October. I assume that the 6/23rd bat. received similar orders as they both proceeded to Malta as part of Operation "Coat" on 29/10/40. They were part of reinforcements consisting of two 25 pdr field batteries, three AA batteries, one tank troop and one infantry bt carried on the battleship Barham, cruisers Berwick & Glasgow & 6 destroyers from force H arriving 10/11/1940 ref "Churchill & Malta's War" by Douglas Austin pg 69. On 28th November 1940 the guns, tanks, vehicles & equipment were brought in on 2 fast merchantmen as part of Operation "Collar"
WO169/7402 at Kew contains War diaries of 12th Field Rgt. RA Malta Command from 12th July/Dec 1942. This file lists activities as being smoke manufacture, HAA relief, Coast patrols, beach defence, OPs, smoke screens. On October 1st 1942 in Exercises the 1st time the whole regt is deployed since arriving on Malta. Lists 6th, 23rd & 49/91 which seems to have separated the 6th & 23rd into 2 units. I have a group photo which I believe to have been taken on Malta which has 12 officers and 140 Ors including my father which is possibly half of the 6th/23rd. One gun suffers a premature explosion in the bore causing Gunner Rourke J to lose an arm.
Guns are Mk IV & Mk V 25 pdrs.
WO 169/14559 (Jan/July 1943) 11th Feb 1943 a large dump of corroded smoke containers exploded killing 1 OR & 5 Maltese labourers.
A 6th June 1943 Field Return details by rank (no names) the 12th Field regt strength as 38 Officers and 517 ORs which is 154 short of a full complement.
19/10/1943 the 12 Field Regt leaves Malta for British North Africa Force arriving on 20/10/1943.
I am not sure if this is too long winded as I said previously this is my 1st attempt but it seems a logical point too break off.
I hope this helps to fill in some of the blanks.
DGS

 

Wow - thanks for that DGS; some really interesting information there. Unfortunately, my Grandfather died just over a year ago now so he's no longer with us - but that certainly hasn't stopped me from wanting to find out more; on the contrary, it's made me even more determined! Whilst he didn't go into any great detail, I certainly remember him talking about the training at Larkhill. He also spoke quite a lot about Malta and how hard it was for everyone on the Island during the siege; I'd be very interested in seeing a copy of the picture of your father's Battery if you're able to attach it and share it on this forum. As you're new to the forum, here's a couple of other threads that may be of interest to you:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/royal-artillery/41095-25pdr-gun-crews-help.html

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/searching-someone-military-genealogy/34840-ra-malta-12th-field-regt.html

You may be aware having read through this thread the 12th Field Regt turned into the 17th Medium Regt whilst they were in N Africa; I have a copy of the 17th's war diaries covering their deployment to Italy and have (within the last couple of weeks) asked another member of this forum to obtain copies of the 12th's for me; I'm very much looking forward to them coming through.

All the best,

Mark

 

Help, I posted quite an extensive reply to 51MMO regarding my similar research on my father a gunner in 12th Field later 17th Medium Rgt up to their arrival in North Africa.
It was my 1st effort at this and I dont seem to be able to locate it. Do these reply constitute a thread? Whats a URL?
Hope somebody can enlighten me
DGS

 

Hi DGS; below this message, on the right hand side should be some page numbers -your original reply should be at the bottom of page 3 of this 'thread' (discussion).

Regards,

Mark

 

My grandad Charles iles 12th field artillery 1941 to 43 have no idea on anything else could anyone help

 

Valetta malta 1942