49th Battery (12th Field) and 253rd Battery (17th Medium)

Hello All,

I'm in the process of trying to uncover further information about my Grandfather, Bombardier G H Land, and his time spent in the Army during the Second World War. He served in the Royal Artillery, spending 3 years on Malta during the siege, followed by a rest and refit in North Africa, before moving on to fight his way up through Italy. I have made enquiries with the Firepower Museum at Greenwich and have managed to obtain copies of the war diaries for the regiments (12th Field and 17th Medium) in which he served. Whilst these are excellent in the detail that they do provide, they are a summary and consequently only really scratch the surface; I want to go deeper and find out more. I know that he was in was in the 49th Battery of the 12th Field and the 253rd Battery of the 17th Medium. I am looking for any information/books/references related to the batterys/regiments in which he served and would really appreciate any guidance/assistance that is offered.

I'm brand new to all this so hopefully I've managed to work the system correctly!

 

Hello again 51MMO
Were the Diaries you obtained from Woolwich, summary copies or the full original ones as held at the NA Kew? as i have found this before with other Regts.
As you probably know the 17th Med Regt RA was formed from the 12th Field in Nov43 and were a GHQ Regt with the 8th Army in Nth Africa. They then went to Italy with 10AGRA under command of 2 Polish Corps & finished up as a 7AGRA Regt.
Best
Rob

 

I thought I posted on here already.

Have you considered getting copies of the units war diaries? The regimental diaries should exist but the battery ones are normally only covering periods of when they were working independent of their parent unit/regiment.

If you're too far from the National Archives and want copies, drop me a private message.

Cheers
Andy

 

Hello again 51MMO
Were the Diaries you obtained from Woolwich, summary copies or the full original ones as held at the NA Kew?

They were summary copies; two pages on each regiment providing key dates, place names etc. I take it the full original ones would provide a lot more detail?

The library staff also strongly recommended a book titled the Guns and Gunners of Malta - is this something you've ever come across?

 

They were summary copies; two pages on each regiment providing key dates, place names etc. I take it the full original ones would provide a lot more detail?


Indeed, you'll find more than two pages in the originals thats for sure.

 

Indeed, you'll find more than two pages in the originals thats for sure.

That's funny - I've just sent you a PM!

 

That's funny - I've just sent you a PM!

Don't mind me Mark...I live here

 

I see Andy's sorting your diaries
Guns + Gunners of Malta;
ISBN/REF:9990968837/TGAGP
The Guns & Gunners of Malta by Denis Rollo, PB, 1999, Mondial, 490p, 29.5 x 21cm, Colour illustrations

Avalible here;
The Guns and Gunners of Malta - FAA - TrolleyMania eMall Malta


Best
Rob

 

Thanks for the link Rob - much appreciated!

I've been searching everywhere for a copy of that book; obviously not very well though!

 

Help - I'm confused!

I've recently been reading through the summary of the war diary for the 17th Medium and despite the batteries being numbered 252 and 253, some of the text contains references to P and Q batteries - can anyone offer up an explanation as to why that might be?

 

51MMO
Think you will find P & Q refers to 'Troops' within a Bty.
Medium Regts RA had 2 Bty's comprising of 2 lettered 'Troops' in each, somtimes more. Each 'Troop' had 4 guns, so 8 guns in a Bty, 16 guns in a Regt.
ie 1st Bty - A & B Troops
2nd Bty - C & D Troops
'Troops also had lettered 'Sub' guns, but we won't go into that!
My Avatar shows a 'Troop'
Best
Rob

 

Thanks for that Rob - a very useful bit of information; it's all suddenly become very clear!

 

Sorry Rob, nothing to do with the Troops, but as with all things Royal Artillery, it seems to have been designed to confuse the non-members! Basically, Batteries within a Regiment were numbered, however, they were referred to in training pamphlets as, P, Q, R and S. With P being the senior Battery. It had nothing to do with the actual number of the Battery.

I think you may be more confused by this explanation than you were to start with!!

 

I think in this case as there aren't sufficient Troops to get to P, the P & Q are being used as generic terms for the Batteries. A lot of official documents refer to the Btys as P, Q, R etc. indicating the senior, middle and junior Btys rather than their actual designation. Thus P Bty in any regiment would be the senior Bty in that regiment. So in 17 Medium, P Bty would be 252 and Q Bty 253.

Pipped to the post

 

Sorry Rob, nothing to do with the Troops, but as with all things Royal Artillery, it seems to have been designed to confuse the non-members! Basically, Batteries within a Regiment were numbered, however, they were referred to in training pamphlets as, P, Q, R and S. With P being the senior Battery. It had nothing to do with the actual number of the Battery.

I think you may be more confused by this explanation than you were to start with!!

Tell me!
I've got an 'M' Troop

 

I think in this case as there aren't sufficient Troops to get to P, the P & Q are being used as generic terms for the Batteries. A lot of official documents refer to the Btys as P, Q, R etc. indicating the senior, middle and junior Btys rather than their actual designation. Thus P Bty in any regiment would be the senior Bty in that regiment. So in 17 Medium, P Bty would be 252 and Q Bty 253.

Pipped to the post

Derek

great minds think alike

 

Thanks for that - it definately makes sense now.

I presume it very much depended on the operational circumstances at the time, but would the batteries tend to have been located relatively close to one another or would there have been a considerable distance between the 2?

 

51MMO

as you say, it depends on the circumstances, Batteries could even operate independantly if required.

Phil

 

Does that apply to RHA Regiments too?

I only as as I know 1 RHA has a diary for their time in France and there is a A/E Battery diary that I believe was part of 1 RHA.

Just curious

 

The P, Q, R Bty was usually only used when speaking in general terms to avoid having to refer to the "senior bty" etc. mostly in official documents such as training pamphlets. It therefore applied to the RHA as well. The confusion comes when regiments use the system to refer to btys within their regiment instead of the bty's actual title.

It is to be hoped that it was never used in 3 RHA's documents as they actually had P Bty