4. Gebirgs Division 1944/45

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by dbf, Sep 23, 2008.

  1. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    In relation to 4.Gebirgs-Division, this quote from Williamson's books states:


    In late 1944 the division withdrew across the Carpathian mountains into Hungary, and was involved in the fighting retreat into Czechoslovakia and Austria, ending up as part of 1. Panzerarmee. By the end of the war this once powerful division had been reduced to a Kampfgruppe; it surrendered on 9 May 1945.


    What figures are we dealing with here roughly, any thoughts?


    Thanks,
    D
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Been looking, and can't yet find anything on the web or in my books other than mentions of 2 Divisional Histories in German.
    Trouble is 'Kampfgruppe' is frustratingly meaningless in trying to get a decent impression of numbers isn't it, bit of a 'how long's a piece of string?' definition (& some would say a little typical of Williamson's books :unsure: ).
     
  3. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Hi Diane,

    Had a search and came up with the folowing:

    The 4th Gebirgs div was formed in 1940 and strengthened by elements of the 25th and 27th inf Divs.

    After training fought in the invasion of Yugoslavia, before taking part in the invasion of Russia, where the div stayed throughout the war.

    That probably explains the loss of so many.

    The Div retreated from Russia through Hungary in late 1944 before ending up in Austria where the Div surrendered on the 9th May 1945.

    In total the Div marched over 10,800 kms, with 10,800 killed and 2,452 missing.

    The Division had 14,000 Officers, NCO's and men.

    There is a lot more on the Division if you go to Lexikon der Wehrmacht

    I hope that this is of help.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  4. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Thanks VP, am glad I am not the only one then ...

    I thought I was going mad trying to get this into some numerical / percentage context.

    "... a lot of men died" would have been more honest! :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Thanks Tom,

    Sorry, I missed your post due to cross over and to my computer not recognising my notifications any more...

    Lexikon der Wehrmacht - Gebirgsjäger-Regimenter

    That site is very useful and just about the only worthwhile online narrative of the Division. I looked at it again and I think I might have stumbled upon a lead. So thank you.

    Also found today a few copies of Braun's book about the Division. Some a little bit pricey, but one was reasonable ...

    Regards
     
  6. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Diane

    You can be sure that if they referred to a Kampfgruppe it was at most a few thousand with very few vehicles left
     
    dbf likes this.
  7. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Ger,
    At least I am getting the drift. Think my grandfather was very lucky indeed.
     
  8. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    He was very very lucky Diane. The fighting in Hungary was fairly intense between the fall of Budapest (theres a fantastic thread by Owen on the forum about this) and the Lake Balaton offensive. as regards the size of a Kampfgruppe it could range from in size from as small as a Company to as large as a Corps but in most cases it was of Battalion strength. It was one of the great strengths of the German Army, the ability to form Kampfgruppes for specific tasks and units worked sided by sided with others seamlessly. As the situation collapsed around them the German units, even when seperated from their Parent Units, were able to work cohesively with other scratch units to organise retreats and escapes when other armies would have long surrendered. The retreat of XXIV Panzer Corps from Poland in 1944 is a fine example of this.
     
  9. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    GH,

    Thanks for your thoughts and for the thread pointer.

    Been saving up money for a few books...
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  10. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Photo ScrapBook

    Here are some Gebirgsjager photos Diane. Not of 4th Gebirgsjager but interesting nonetheless.
     
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  11. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Photo ScrapBook

    Here are some Gebirgsjager photos Diane. Not of 4th Gebirgsjager but interesting nonetheless.

    Thanks, I always check through pics, you never know when something could be mis-labelled

    D
     
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Old thread, just updating with a couple of relevant books.

    Gebirgssoldaten unter dem Zeichen des 'Enzian'; Roland Kaltenegger
    50_12945.jpg

    Enzian und Edelweiß Die 4. Gebirgsdivision 1940 - 1945
    Julius Braun
    4. Gebirgs Division; Julius Braun.png
     

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    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  13. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Following this thread I found on my bookshelves a 1980 book 'Alpine Elite: German Mountain Troops of World War II' by James Lucas. There is a chapter on Austria 1945, alas the focus is a regiment from the 1st Mountain Division. Been a very long time since I looked at the book. It refers to three 1941-1942 unpublished war diaries in the bibliography.
     
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  14. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Preserved holdings on the 4.Gebirgsdivision in the Bundesarchiv:
    EHRI - 4. Gebirgs-Division
     
    dbf likes this.
  15. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Came across another book on this division from a book seller in Berlin.

    Ended up smashing the piggy-bank & bought six books...

    Ludwig Lutz..

    My seven seven "lost" years 1938-45 of the 91st Mountain Infantry Regiment 4 Gerbirgsjäger-Division- 244 pages @ only€39.00.. Poland, France, Russia & Romainia, final battle.

    Edit..
    Not the above.

    Stu.
     
  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    This just arrived. 1992 book by same author.
    Is it a rework of the earlier book or completely different ?
    Alot cheaper than the 1980 book though.
    ''Hitler's Mountain Troops'' by James Lucas.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021

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