4 Border Regiment May 1940

Discussion in '1940' started by Deacs, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria. Patron

    Andy and anyone else who would like to offer me any help.
    I have 2 casualty's on Cockermouth War Memorial who were in the 4th Bn Borders who died on the 23 and 24 May 1940 post away if you have any details thanks.

    Also if anyone has a picture of thier headstones i would also be gratefull.

    Private Leslie Wise 3599490 4th Bn Border Reg. 23/05/1940. CWGC - Casualty Details

    Lance Corporal Walter Norman 3594101 4th Bn Border Reg. CWGC - Casualty Details

    Regards Michael.
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Walter Norman's headstone here.
    aillysursomme
    Contact the webmaster of that site for a larger photo.
     
  3. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    One of the articles I posted to the BBC "People's War" website on behalf of someone was about the 4th Battalion The Border Regiment in WW2. The gentleman concerned had copies of War Diaries etc.

    If it of any assistance to you, this is an extract from that article about the period you are asking about here:

    " ... arriving at Aumale, the 4th Border was allotted the task of capturing three bridges west of Amiens on the River Somme. So, following in the footsteps of their fathers and uncles of the Great War, the men of Cumberland and Westmorland went down to the battle alongside the Queen's Bays of the 2nd Armoured Brigade.

    The date of the first contact with the enemy was early on the morning of 24th May 1940. This was the old date for 'Empire Day'. The early dawn mist gave way to brilliant unclouded weather as the tanks and infantry moved to the attack.

    Mixed fortunes followed: one company was ambushed before they reached their objective and scattered. Another of the companies reached the north bank of the Somme and were engaged in mortar machine gun and rifle exchanges with the Germans. The third company reached their allotted bridge, crossed to the east bank and drove off the enemy. The fighting continued all day in the beautiful spring day until nightfall when all the companies withdrew, taking numbers of prisoners with them."

    The full article can be read by clicking on the following link ("WW2 People's War - The 4th Battalion, The Border Regiment in WW2"):
    BBC - WW2 People's War - The 4th Battalion, The Border Regiment in WW2

    Hopefully this may help a little.
     
  4. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria. Patron

    I have now recieved the photos of their headstones courtesy of Pierre
    Thanks Owen for the link to his web site.

    Cheers for that Jos a great insight into what happened.

    Regards all Michael.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    The following 4th Bn Border Regiment casualty is listed on the Keswick War Memorial:

    3598388, Pte. George Cartmell
    4th Bn The Border Regiment
    Date of death: 1 March 1941
    Buried: Krakow Rakowicki Cemetery, Poland (Grave 6.D.4)

    (For those who do not know the area, Keswick is a town a little to the east of Cockermouth).

    While previously investigating WW2 casualties from the Keswick area I have wondered if this soldier may have been taken prisoner by the Germans the previous May / June and then died while in prison camp or hospital the following March? The burial location at Krakow Rakowicki Cemetery in Poland would fit this conjecture. I know of other casualties taken prisoner in defending the withdrawal to Dunkirk who died as a POW and are interred in this cemetery.

    The CWGC does not record his next of kin or that he was linked to the Keswick area. However, this will be the same fellow. T.A. soldiers from the Keswick area tended to go into 4th Border. Those from Cockermouth and West Cumberland tended to go into 5th Border at this time.

    Perhaps someone can fill in some of the gaps about Pte. Cartmell: possibly even a photograph of his headstone?

    Thanks
     
  6. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria. Patron

    Hi Jos i have a 5th Border who is buried in Krakow possibly taken prisoner at the same time maybe.

    COLLINS, KENNETH NORMAN

    Rank: Private
    Service No: 3599784
    Date of Death: 14/06/1941
    Age: 20
    Regiment/Service: Border Regiment 5th Bn.
    Grave Reference 1A. C. 11.
    Cemetery KRAKOW RAKOWICKI CEMETERY

    CWGC - Casualty Details
     
  7. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Hi Jos i have a 5th Border who is buried in Krakow possibly taken prisoner at the same time maybe.

    COLLINS, KENNETH NORMAN

    I also think it likely. It would be best checked out to be sure, such as at the Regimental Museum, from microfiche copies of the local newspaper at a local library or the County Archives. The CWGC information about the burials in the cemetery mentions most of them were transferred there from the cemetery where POWs who died in the hospital for POWs at Lamsdorf (Stalag VIIIB).

    The ICRC in Geneva would likely have the relevant information, which they wold supply free of charge to a 'next of kin'. They would supply the information to you as a researcher, but would request a search fee (the details are on the ICRC website - it has been covered before on 'WW2 Talk').

    There are only five Regiment soldiers buried in this cemetery. Private Collins from Cockermouth that you mention was with 5th Border. The other four were with 4th Border. One of these four is Pte George Cartmell, who I have already mentioned earlier is commemorated on the Keswick War Memorial.
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    They man be listed in WO 361/90 Border Regiment; missing men. Unfortunately I don't have that file yet.

    I'll attempt to add more to this thread when I have time.
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    From the battalions war diary:
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    [​IMG]
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  11. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Thanks.

    The gentleman on whose behalf I posted the article about 4th Border to the BBC "People's War" website had copies of these. Unfortunately I could not make a copy for my own later research.
     
  12. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria. Patron

    Andy what can i say thanks very much.
    Am i reading this right there wasn't much action on the 23rd when Pte.Wise died but then on the 24th it all kicked off and it looks like they had a hard time of it ?
    So i wonder what happened to Pte.Wise.
    Also What book is that Andy ?

    Regards Michael.
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Shears - Border Regiment - AbeBooks

    He is buried 169 miles away in another country from where his battalion was on the 23rd May. I suspect there may be an error at CWGC's end or he was attached to another unit (It happened a lot in 1940).

    Not sure you want to fork out £30 but I would consider service records as a possible next step.
     
  14. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria. Patron

    Thanks for that Andy
    Was never too good at geography.

    Regards again Michael.
     
  15. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Deacs:

    3595298 Pte Leslie Wise is listed in the Battalion 'Roll of Honour' for the 1st Battalion The Border Regiment.
    (Appendix 1, "When Dragons Flew", Stuart Eastwood, Charles Gray & Alan Green).

    The record there also says he was 'Born and domiciled in Cumberland'.

    Drew's intuition about his battalion being incorrectly transcribed by the CWGC would seem to be correct! The other Border Regiment casualties in Tournai Cemetery were from 1st Border (who were in that area at the end of May).

    No need for you to spend £30 for a service record or £40 for a book if you are going to be sent down the wrong road in writing up a tribute for Pte Leslie Wise. It may be worthwhile if you contacted the CWGC and see if they would like to cross check their original written record from which they have transcribed the website entry. in similar cases to this they have amended what is obviously an incorrect record .... in other instances they will not budge!

    Hope this helps.
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Deacs:

    3595298 Pte Leslie Wise is listed in the Battalion 'Roll of Honour' for the 1st Battalion The Border Regiment.
    (Appendix 1, "When Dragons Flew", Stuart Eastwood, Charles Gray & Alan Green).


    Nice one-Another book to add to the collection :D
     
  17. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria. Patron

  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    We do try in the 1940 section you know ;)

    I'll sort out some 1 Border War Diary stuff for you when I'm back at the w/end from Kew.
     
  19. Deacs

    Deacs Well i am from Cumbria. Patron

    Spot on Andy cheers look forward to it :)
     
  20. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    The 1st Border movements in 1940 are given in fairly good detail in "When Dragons Flew" based upon the War Diaries, personal testimonies and other donated documents. What are you still missing about 1st Border from 1940 and I will see if I can assist?

    Are there any other 1st or 4th Border WW2 casualties listed on the memorial?
     

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