3rd Reconnaissance Bn. South African Tank Corps

Discussion in 'South African' started by dieperdors, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. dieperdors

    dieperdors Junior Member

    Hi Everyone,

    My name is Christine and I love researching family history and I have special interest in researching my relatives who fought in the Boer War, and 1st and Second World Wars!

    My Great Uncle was Lance Corporal John Henry van der Merwe...

    Rank:
    Lance Corporal
    Service No:
    196995
    Date of Death:
    07/02/1942
    Regiment/Service:
    South African Tank Corps

    3rd Reconnaissance Bn.
    Grave Reference
    5. C. 9.
    Cemetery
    KNIGHTSBRIDGE WAR CEMETERY, ACROMA

    He died in an "AirRaid" according to his attestation papers! I would love to know more about his regiment and if anyone knows more about what could have happened to him? So the story behind the facts!

    I know when he died his buddies buried him, we have a photo of that first grave and then he was possibly moved to the cemetery where he rests today! What does everyone think, would they uncover his body and rebury him or leave him where he was buried and just put up a stone in the official cemetery to commemorate him?

    The attestation papers mentions that he had a wife, this is news to everyone in the family, if it was so it was a secret! Are mistakes common on these papers? He was only 23 years old!

    Anyway if anyone would like to comment or flesh out the story, I would love to hear from you!
    Kind regards
    Christine
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Christine

    Don't know what happened to your Gt uncle but all dead were collected by the Graves Commissioned people and re-interred in the new cemeteries when the fighting had moved on - the date tells me that he was killed on Rommel's second push in the desert from El Agheila - after the British Victory of crusader- a good book of these times is in Barrie Pitts trilogy " The Crucible of War " wish you the best in your quest

    Cheers
     
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Christine

    Slight correction - not a lot about the Sth Africans in Pitt's book of that time so you might be better off in Googglng for the "The Crusader Battle ' and you will see that this battle was all over by the 2nd February '42 and there ws apause while both sites reformed
    in May'42 the Battles began again at the Gazala Line - losing the Fortress of Tobruk with the 2nd Sth African Division under Gen Kloppers and the retreat back to El Alamein line - so it was probably an Air raid which killed your Gt Uncle and buried at Knightbridge
    Cheers
     
  4. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Christine,

    I know that at least part of the 3rd SA Reconnaissance Bn was attached to the 50th (Northumbrian) Division in the Gazala 'Boxes' at 20 March 1942, but not when it became attached. It may well have been earlier, as Fifty Div's own 50th Recce (actually the 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusliers) had left the division in circa December 1941.

    Another member of 3rd SA Reconnaissance Bn died on the same day - Sgt RJ Clunnie - and it may be that he also died in the same incident. You should consider acquiring a copy of the 3rd SA Reconnaissance Bn War Diary for this period, as these incidents are sometimes reported in the WD.

    I understand that the South African Military Archives contains WD's for all the Armored Reconnaissance Battalions, but it could be expensive to get it to provide you with the copy WD's. If you decide to go down this line of enquiry and cannot do it yourself, look to see if there is a copying service such as those operated by Andy (handle 'Drew5233) or Lee (handle ' PsyWar.org) on this forum/here in the UK.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  5. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Hi Christine

    3 South African Reconnaissance Regiment were equipped with Marmon Herrington III Armoured Cars manufactured in South Africa I believe. On 7 Feb 42 they reported 90 of these, i.e. considerably over strength (they should have had just 64, I believe). They had just a few days before (around 3 Feb 42) arrived in the Gazala line as a backstop to British 1 Armoured and 7 Indian Division, who were retreating before the Axis counter-offensive. The intent was to hold the Gazala line, and so 1 South African Division, 150 Brigade of 50 Northumberland Division, and various other units were assembled there. Your great uncle's unit would, together with 4 South African Armoured Car Regiment have provided most of the ground reconnaissance, given their combined strength (they had considerably more armored cars than all the British armoured car units in the Gazala line taken together at this stage). A key role would have been to provide an armoured car screen behind which the infantry and guns could establish their defensive positions without interference. This was something the Commonwealth armoured cars were very good at, and which considerably frustrated the Axis commanders, since it deprived them of ground reconnaissance results.

    The static period in the Gazala line was marked by a lot of air activity and bombardments of the positions, so it is possible that your great uncle was either killed in one of those attacks, or while out on a patrol, when a lot of strafing ground attacks happened. Both German and Italian planes were equipped with cannon or heavy machine guns that could penetrate the armour of the Marmon Herrington cars.

    I hope this helps a bit.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  6. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    One more thing, the South African military archives in Jo'Burg hold a lot of material relating to the period, and they are very helpful. They would also hold the war diaries of the unit, and these are your best bet in terms of getting the information.

    I will have a look in Orpen 'War in the Desert', which may have some more detail on this.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  7. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

    If you can find a copy through interlibrary loan, looking at Springboks in Armour: The South African Armoured Cars in World War Two by Harry Klein would give you a flavour of what he and his unit were doing. I looked your Great Uncle up in the index and he's mentioned once, listed on the role of honour. However, a cursory study of the book doesn't turn up any incident described that could have lead to his death.
     
  8. dieperdors

    dieperdors Junior Member

    Thank you so much all for your input, it is all so interesting. You guys have given me some leads to follow, so keep it coming if you think of anything else!

    Thanks again for your time!
    Christine
     
  9. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Nothing in Springboks in Armour, I'm afraid. Checked it this morning.

    Orpen 'War in the Desert' has only a short statement saying that one company from 3 SA Recce Bn covered the retreat of 'E' Force into the Gazala position. Below is what I have on that:

    3 February
    At 0030 hours orders were received for immediate withdrawal to TMIMI, and HQ column set off at 0115 hours. The two columns were advised and joined HQ column early during the march. An enemy column of 100 M.T. with guns were reported and this kept shelling the force all day. Shelling was also received from the direction of Menedao Bay, from a suspected submarine. 3/2 Punjab was under fire all day, but no damage was caused. At 1730 hours Force ‘E’‘E’ Force conducted rear-guard cover during the withdrawal of 4 Indian Division HQ to Acroma outside tobruk. It was ordered by 4 Indian Division (which in turn had received an order to leave a column to cover Gazala) to remain at Gazala with some armoured cars attached, and with its B Echelon at Acroma. The enemy did not follow up.

    4 February
    Force ‘E’ ‘E’ Force remained at Gazala. The last remaining armoured cars of 7 SA Recce Bn were sent back due to their technical state, and the KDG squadron was removed. 3 Recce Bn came under command, together with a battery from 4 SA Fd Rgt. The enemy was not following up in strength, only reconnaissance patrols were reported.


    At this stage I can only suggest to get in touch with the SA military archives in Jo'Burg.

    With regard to the official war diaries of the relevant units, we recommend that you direct an enquiry to the South African National Defence Force Documentation Centre, email: sandfdoc@mweb.co.za (If you are not in Jo'Burg you will have to hire a researcher).

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  10. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Christine. I hope you don't mind me hijacking this thread for a moment, but I have a question for Steve regarding the 50th Recce Regiment.

    Steve, I have the following dates for their arrivals and withdrawals from the North African theatre, do you concur?

    Arrive 06/06/41. Withdrawn 26/07/41. Return @ 26/11/41. Withdrawn ??/02/42. Return @ 28/02/42.


    To Andreas and other interested parties.
    From William Marshall, regarding "overstrength" Marmon Herrington South African Recce A/C units.
    (Specifically citing the 7th.)

    ""7 Armoured Car Reconnaissance Battalion, formed from 21 (Railways and Harbours Brigade) Armoured Car Company and 22 (Railways and Harbours Brigade) Armoured Car Company in March 1941 as 7 Armoured Fighting Vehicle Regiment, then redesignated, this unit arrived in North Africa early in July 1941.
    An armoured car unit had a nominal strength of between 58 and 64 cars; a reconnaissance battalion’s authorised strength, on the other hand, was 116 Mark III cars in three companies (36 in each company, each comprising three 12-car platoons and two cars allocated to the company headquarters) plus 4 cars in the regimental headquarters.
    The external-service units of the South African Tank Corps began concentrating in Egypt from mid-June onwards. 4 Armoured Car Regiment (Lieutenant-­Colonel D S Newton-King) and 6 Armoured Car Regiment (Lieutenant-­Colonel V C G O’B Short) arrived straight from the Union; Lieutenant-Colonel Grobbelaar was already there (early in July 1941) with 7 South African Armoured Car Reconnaissance Battalion, while the veteran East Africa hands of 2 and 3 Armoured Car Companies were amalgamated with 2 South African Motorcycle Company to form the core of the new 3 South African Armoured Car Reconnaissance Battalion under Lieutenant-Colonel G K Roodt.

    No 7 SA Reconnaissance Battalion
    This unit arrived in the Middle East early in July 1941 and was commanded by Lt Col P.H. Grobbelaar. After arrival they were put through and extensive training period in desert warfare. For operations this unit was split between the 2 SA Division and “Oasis Group”.
    This unit was assigned the long range raid on Mekili landing ground. Accompanied by RAF armoured cars of very old vintage (Rolls Royce?) this force covered over 200 miles to execute a raid which turned out to be of little value to the war effort.

    On 08 Oct 41 this unit handed over 45 Mark III and 42 Mark I armored cars to 1 SA Division.
    On 12 Oct 41, 21 armored cars were handed over to 5 Infantry Bde and a further 21 cars to 1 Infantry Bde. On 01 Dec 41 this unit handed over 36 Mark III armored cars to the Royals.

    The 2nd SA Division had the 7th Reconnaissance Battalion as its recce battalion and after some heavy fighting it was finally lost near Tobruk in June 1942.""
     
  11. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    David

    Thanks for this. I have an open thread on South African Armoured Cars, where this may fit better.

    By November it appears to me that 7 SA Recce was brought down to normal establishment strength. They took two companies with 49 cars total on the raid you describe.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  12. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  13. Jproject

    Jproject New Member

    Hello. Apologies to piggyback on this conversation. I found this reference this morning while researching for my son's WW2 project.

    He is focusing on the North African theatre. This is because his great grandfather Francis Arlent Edwards was a member of the the SA 4th armoured. We have photos of him (training completion), his beret badge, His trunk from the campaign with No 4th COY SA Armoured cars & tank.

    I have found references in British armour diary extracts of the 4th's reporting the significant Axis armour movements at the beginning of Gazala. In addition the 4th/6th were some of the first together with Royal Dragoons ordered to cross lines at El Alamein. We are going to mock up the radio transmission and the battle order for his project book.

    We live in the UK so it is difficult to access the diaries (probably at war museum in jhb). I would greatly appreciate any information that would help on these subjects or the 4th more generally.

    Sadly Frank survived the whole war only to die saving 2 people from the sea in the Transkei in November 1945.

    My Gran talked of stories recited by comrades. One was sadly Frank witnessing his best friend's ('Dickie ' Furlong's) Marmon being directly hit.

    The project will have various insights and examples of the campaign, photos, the trunk with a mock up contents and a 1m sq vignette of a skirmish on the Gazala line

    Any insight would be be very gratefully received

    In 2 year's time for my daughter's WW2 project, I need to research a great uncle taken prisoner at Tobruk and lost on a hospital/POW ship sunk by British submarine. Alfie Heberden was a excellent artist. Many of his pastels and paintings on our walls today

    The lesson from the first project is to get started early on research
     
  14. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Can anyone tell me when the 3rd recce Bn arrived in North Africa, and if it belonged to either of the two infantry divisions?
    Thanks, David.
     
  15. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    David

    The battalion never 'arrived' in North Africa, it was apparently formed there from No. 2 and 3 Armoured Car Companies which arrived from East Africa in June 41, and No. 2 Motorcycle Company, same arrival I would presume, and all Brigade recce assets in 1 South African Division. In August this was completed by No. 1 Armoured Car and No. 1 Motorcycle Company arriving from South Africa.

    The battalion was the recce unit of 1 South African Division.

    Source is 'Springboks in Armour'

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  16. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Thanks Andreas.
     

Share This Page