3858211 Trooper Daniel HORNBY, Scots Greys: 14/09/1943, Help decipher CWCG Concentration Record

Hello

Hopefull this is the right are

We have an ancestor who was Killed in Italy, but is buried at Bone War Cemetary, his DoD is 14th September 1943

In the concentration form, does anyone know what the previously buired at reference stands for , and if you can work out the date

Trying to work out (nothing in war diaries) about what he was doing and where he was actually injured / died

He is Daniel Hornby

Thank you


https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/938467/daniel-hornby/

 

Hello Steve,

The Scots Greys were in Italy, in action at Salerno from 9th September 1943.

Trooper Hornby is listed on Official Casualty List No. 1253, published 1st of October 1943, as "Italy" "Died of Wounds"on 14th of September 1943. He may have been being evacuated, via aircraft or ship, for hospital in Algeria, and subsequently succumbed to his wounds on the journey (only educated guesswork on my part at this time though).





The reference on the grave concentration report, HQGR/CHK/2002, I'm still trying to corroborate at present. From memory we've had other casualties with similar circumstances come up on the Forum before. Possibly a cemetery near a hospital, from which he was subsequently moved from and reburied at Bone.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Wounded sent for treatment from Italy to North Africa

 

Hi, thanks for this, I had read this earlier, but I was trying to establish what the previoulsy buried at was

The link is very useful though and does explain quite a bit

 

Many thanks Jim

Ive seen about lots of injured from Italy moving to Algeria, but was trying to work out if he died in Italy of his wounds, or if he died in Algeria, as from what I have seen the injured were moved to Algeria, no mention of the deceased

 

I'd be nigh on certain Steve that if Trooper Hornby had died in Italy he would have been buried there, and even, if required, concentrated into a CWGC cemetery there e.g within Salerno War Cemetery itself.

There's something perculier about the "Previously Buried at" reference (HQGR/CHK/2002). I can't help but think it's a hospital reference. More than happy to be wrong about it, as that will mean there's an answer been found.

In the meantime, and back to your original post; "what he was doing and where he was actually injured / died", possibilities here:

"Salerno, 9 -16 Sep 1943

The 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys)

The Greys remained in Tripoli for most of 1943 while the army advanced on Tunis and invaded Sicily. However, the regiment took part in the Allied landings on the west coast of mainland Italy on 9 Sep. For this they were in the 56th British Infantry Division, split up so that A Squadron joined 167th Infantry Brigade, B Squadron 201st Guards Brigade, and C Squadron 169th Infantry Brigade. The regiment left Tripoli on 4 Sep, the landing craft arriving off Salerno on 9 Sep. A and C Squadrons landed in the first wave and were quickly in action against a well-entrenched and highly motivated German defence. The infantry were held up by German tanks and the Greys were unable to come to their aid due to being bogged down. But they were pulled free in time to tackle the opposition and two men especially distinguished themselves in the battle. Sgt McMeekin took out four enemy tanks in quick succession when A Squadron attacked them in a flanking move. Corporal Stamper carried out a recce on foot and found a well concealed enemy tank which could not be by-passed. He brought his tank forward and calculated the direction of fire, destroying the tank with his first shot. He went on to knock out two anti-tank gun crews before his own tank hit a mine. McMeekin and Stamper both received the Military Medal for their good shooting. During the first four days the Greys moved between 5 and 6 miles inland in support of the infantry, gradually establishing a series of strong positions from which to withstand expected German counter-attacks. When these occurred between 13 and 16 Sep they were successfully repelled."

See Scots Greys

And also a strange tale from the Royal Scots Greys at Salerno here:

Auction: Lot: 68

I'll keep trying to hunt an answer to the "Previously Buried" reference down.

You might want to consider applying for Trooper Hornby's service records, a clue or reference within is a possibility.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Will have a read shortly, we have applied for his Service Records, and his Death Certificate (not sure the Death Cert will say anything different but you never know, and I have never seen a military format one from the GRO) Long wait for the service records, TNA dont have a number of records scanned in so cant be viewed (for his regiment I mean)

We have read through the war diaries for the 9th Sep -14th Sep no specific mentions and not much listed in the way of casualties, I did see Sgt McMeekin was put forward for Medals due to his actions in that particular campaign but slightly later in the October of that year

Kind Regards

 

This previous thread within the Forum, from 2017, is well worth a read.

Royal Scots Greys - Grants at Salerno

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Also do you know what the role of Trooper in the armoured division would of consisted of ?

Thanks

 

How about contacting CWGC for an explanation - their refs after all ? (Stress that you are a relative.)


Might indeed be concentration from Hospital burial ground, (or even perhaps a 'shuffle' of graves within the same cemetery, which I've seen in other cases. Essentially some cemetery layouts were redesigned to accommodate further burials.)




For the record, CWGC info for the cemetery states that 70 General Hospital was based in Bone.
Files at TNA might help, but even if same location was used, there's a gap in the dates according to Sue's site. She did stress that some dates / locations from sources used weren't always accurate or complete.

http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/112.html

5 British General Hospital
Goodwood 8/40 to 11/42 then overseas to Bone;
Bone (Africa)11/42 to 12/42 then to Zeriser;

70 British General Hospital
Algiers 11/42 to 12/42 and then to Bone;
Bone 12/42 to 3/43 then to Souk Ahras;

97 British General Hospital
Bone 6/44 to 9/44 then to Taranto;

 

Reel two re Salerno: Randall, Jim (Oral history)

All three "reels" are worth a listen.

Chapter and verse from Trooper Jim Randall.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

The dead were never moved from one country to another . There`s nothing strange about the previous burial as he was exhumed (like most) from a temp burial site to the established CWGC cemetery in this instance Bone War Cemetery . The cemetery costings are from 1953 which explains any delay in moving the fallen. Trooper (TPR) from the French "troupier" is the equivalent rank to private in a regiment with a cavalry tradition in the British Army just like we have gunner, guardsman, sapper, signalman, fusilier, craftsman and rifleman in other regiments and corps ?
Commando Veterans Website have a similar case Private John Barry died on 19 September 1943 at 67 General Hospital C.M.F. of wounds received 13 September 1943 at Dragone Hill, Salerno. He is on the concentration form too.

Costing sheet for Bone below
Search Results


CWGC Copyright


Kyle

 

Thanks, I have contacted the CWGC over my great uncle in the RAF as he is buried next but one to his Pilot Sqd Ldr, but not the rest of the crew, and there is no concentration file for him or Sqd Ldr, They are all in Clichy but not together, well 5 of them are together, his plane was shot down but MIA , but thats a different story

 

thank you, thats a great piece of information , and would explain some things

It does say he died in Italy from his wounds, so a touch confusing if the deceased are not moved from country to country

 

Just having a listen now , thanks Jim

 

Excellent work D!

I think 67 British General Hospital at Philippeville is a possibility too (I have a commando wounded at Salerno on the 13th, died of wounds there at the hospital (Philippeville) on the 15th September '43, and he's buried at Bone).



Again, information courtesy of Hospitals WW2 - Scarlet Finders

Now trying to ascertain if (hospital) burials at Philippeville were concentrated back to Bone.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Steve ,the casualty listing refers to him ` dying of wounds sustained in Italy on the 14th September 1943` , there`s no listing as to when he received these wounds . It`s the interpretation of the list. Ideally there should be another list stating he was wounded on ?? ??? , but there`s not . He has died in Algeria on 14 September 1943 of wounds received in Italy on a date not yet determined . If that makes sense?

Kyle

 

Steve/Kyle.

I haven't said there is anything strange about Trooper Hornby's reburial at Bone.

I have said there is something perculier about the "Previously Buried at" reference. Perculiar in that it's not a map reference.

And as per your question Steve, as to the "role" of a trooper, I'd stick with the Jim Randall interview reels. He explains what he did, his "role", as a trooper, with The Scots Greys.
I'm pretty sure you didn't ask what his rank was.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Hi Kyle

Yes that makes sense, its sort of now what we are assuming, we never really questioned why he was buried in Algeria when serving in Italy, im hoping his Service Secord may explain more, but thats probably about 9-12 months away

 

Here you go Steve, I think it's pretty sound to say that the "Previously Buried at" reference of HQGR/CHK/2002 on Trooper Hornby's Grave Concentration Report Paperwork refers to the burial area at 67 British General Hospital during it's time at Philippeville, Algeria.

Corroboration of same from the records/information of the Commando I referred to in my post at #16 above.

Private Alfred Blower: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/938177/alfred-blower/

Graves Concentration Report Form listing Alfred Blower's previous burial - note the "Previously Buried at" reference (and "ditto'd" all the way down to Alfred). Looks familiar.





And details of Alfred Blower's wounding at Salerno on 13th September '43, and death at 67 British General Hospital Philippeville on 15th September 1943, courtesy of Commandoveterans.org: BLOWER, Alfred | ͏

So Steve, your late relative, Trooper Daniel Hornby, Royal Scots Greys, wounded Salerno some time from 9th September 1943 till his death from said wounds on 14th September, at 67 British General Hospital, Philippeville, Algeria, where he was initially buried ("Previously Buried at" reference HQGR/CHK/2002 on his Graves Concentration Report Form).

Always remember, never forget,

Jim.