30 Corps War Diaries

Discussion in 'Higher Formations' started by PsyWar.Org, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    A straw poll to see how many ww2talkers might be interested in getting copies of the 30 Corps war diaries.

    From time to time I get enquiries about the 30 Corps diaries but because they're rather large, up to several thousand pages per month with all the great appendices, messages, intel reports, etc., obviously it is rather expensive and time consuming to copy them.

    So perhaps a 'coalition of the willing' could be put together to share the cost around. If two or three are interested in a particular month (complete month) then I'm willing to split the cost between them and do a special deal on the price.

    I'll check out the diary beforehand and come up with a fixed discounted price. Each would then receive the full month on DVDs.

    Anyway please PM me if you might potentially be interested in one or more months of 30 Corps war diaries.

    Lee
     
  2. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    These are the references for the 30 Corps diaries:

    WO 171/332, G. (1944 Jan., Feb.)
    WO 171/333, G. (1944 Mar.)
    WO 171/334, G. (1944 Apr.)
    WO 171/335, G. (1944 May)
    WO 171/336, G. (1944 June)
    WO 171/337, G. (1944 July)
    WO 171/338, G. Apps. (1944 July)
    WO 171/339, G. (1944 Aug.)
    WO 171/340, G. Apps. (1944 Aug.)
    WO 171/341, G. (1944 Sept.)
    WO 171/342, G. (1944 Oct.)
    WO 171/343, G. Apps. (1944 Oct.)
    WO 171/344, G. (1944 Nov.)
    WO 171/345, G. Apps. (1944 Nov.)
    WO 171/346, G. (1944 Dec.)
    WO 171/4075, G.S. (1945 Jan.)
    WO 171/4076, G.S. (1945 Feb.)
    WO 171/4077, G.S. (1945 Mar.)
    WO 171/4078, G.S. (1945 Mar.)
    WO 171/4079, G.S. (1945 Apr.)
    WO 171/4080, G.S. (1945 May)
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Mmmmm I wonder how thick they are :lol:
     
  4. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Gunner Tours

    Have you found the 30 Corps RA cell war diaries for Normandy?
     
  5. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Mmmmm I wonder how thick they are :lol:

    'Quite thick' is an understatement :D

    Some interest shown in September 1944 so far.
     
  6. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Have you found the 30 Corps RA cell war diaries for Normandy?

    Doesn't appear to be one. Well it's not where it's supposed to be so either its lost, miss-filed or I just can't find it.
     
  7. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    Could it be that 30 Corps RA was 5AGRA? (Have these in my collection)
    They would only have a CCRA, for Div & AGRA arty reps.
    Best
    Rob
     
  8. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Gunner Tours

    Could it be that 30 Corps RA was 5AGRA? (Have these in my collection)
    They would only have a CCRA, for Div & AGRA arty reps.
    Best
    Rob

    Definitely not. AGRA's were HQs for commanding the artillery at Corps or Army level. Each Divisional and Corps HQ had an RA Cell. The Commander of 5 AGRA was Brigadier Morley The CCRA 30 Corps was Brigadier Rawlins.

    I have been looking at the records in TNA and can find the RA cell War Diaries for 21 AG, 2A, 1 , 8, and 12 Corps but not 30 Corps.

    There are also significant gaps in some of the divisions

    . 6AB division doesn't seem to have an RA War diary between Jun-Aug 1944, which is annoying but understandable given that 6 AB division didn't have the same level of RA staff as an infantry division and its CRA and BMRA both went adrift - literally - on D Day. Maintaining the war diary was probably low priority.

    - 7 AD don't seem to have a War Diary for June or July 1944. This intrigues me as I know that all was not well with 7 AD for those months. Its gunners didn't follow the same procedures as the rest of 21AG and its CRA "resigns in sympathy" with Bobby Erskine. Is this just an oversight or did someone try to hide some evidence about why 7 AD underperformed in Normandy? Its an interesting co-incidence that the RA 30 Corps records don't seem to exist either.

    The reason I was posting this was I have occasionally found war diaries filed under something slightly different. If anyone stumble on any of the missing war diaries please let me know.
     
  9. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    Definitely not. AGRA's were HQs for commanding the artillery at Corps or Army level. Each Divisional and Corps HQ had an RA Cell. The Commander of 5 AGRA was Brigadier Morley The CCRA 30 Corps was Brigadier Rawlins.



    Thank you for your eloquent instruction in Corps & Div Arty Command structure, I thought this is basically what i was saying, without the reference to Cells! at every point.
    Only offering a theory on the absence of the CRA diary, must do better next time.
    It's not the end of the world not having the diaries, as most of the info can be gathered from the individual artillery regiments operational instructions from HQRA XXX Corps & Sitreps, just a bit more work.

    The Commander of 5 AGRA was Brigadier Morley


    For the whole N.W.Europe Campaign, from before D-Day,was there not a Brigadier P G Calvert-Jones & Brigadier M Yates involved anywhere at all?
     
  10. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Gunner Tours

    Thank you for your eloquent instruction in Corps & Div Arty Command structure, I thought this is basically what i was saying, without the reference to Cells! at every point.
    Only offering a theory on the absence of the CRA diary, must do better next time.
    It's not the end of the world not having the diaries, as most of the info can be gathered from the individual artillery regiments operational instructions from HQRA XXX Corps & Sitreps, just a bit more work.

    Sorry for misreading your post, but it did include the phrase "Could it be that 30 Corps RA was 5AGRA?" I am sorry iof the repsonse appeared patronising, but I have no idea of the extent of your knowledge of the matter.

    I agree that it is possible to piece together a lot of information from subordinate and superior HQs. However, in the case of 7 AD the RA war diaries for their own RA Cell and their superior formation RA Cell are missing. There also seem to be gaps in the war diaries of 3 RHA and 5 RHA, the two field regiments in 7AD. I had to drill down to battery level to find WD.

    This makes it harder to investigate the RA side of the 7 AD in Normandy in Ops like Bluecoat, which resulted in the departure of GOC 30 Corps and 7 AD and CRA 7 AD. Comments in two post war books that hint that all was not well with the artillery command and procedures used by 7 AD. I tend to have more faith in the "cock up" theory rather in conspiracy theories, but its an interesting pattern of gaps in the War Diaries that has emerged.

    For the whole N.W.Europe Campaign, from before D-Day,was there not a Brigadier P G Calvert-Jones & Brigadier M Yates involved anywhere at all?

    You are correct - I posted these two names in haste purely to illustrate that CAGRA wasn't CCRA. Calvert Jones replaced Morley before D Day.

    PS I may just be a poor researcher and would be delighted to find the missuing WD. Do you or anyone else have copies of the 3RHA and 5 RHA WD for the complete Normandy Campaign?
     
  11. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Current state of play:

    3 x interest in September 1944;
    1 x interest in June, July and August 1944;
    CRA XXX Corps diary still missing in action.

    The more people wanting a particular month then the cheaper it is for all.

    Lee
     
  12. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Gunner Tours

    psywar,

    I anm in principle interested in the G Branch for June-Sep but would only need a soft copy of anything.
     
  13. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    psywar,

    I anm in principle interested in the G Branch for June-Sep but would only need a soft copy of anything.


    These would be digital photographs shot on a pro-DSLR camera of the original diaries and supplied in JPEG format on DVD. (These are going to be too large for the usual download through the website).

    More details about what I do are here: Arcre - ARCRE - Frequently Asked Questions

    In this case, the cost will be equally divided between however many people are interested in a particular month.
     
  14. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    As there are potentially four people interested in the September 1944 XXX Corps, I've done a quick recce of it.

    It's about 4 inches thick with a very rough estimate of between 1,100 to 1,300 pages.

    So we're looking at about £25.00 each if the four want it. Less if anyone else is interested in a copy.

    The contents of the diary are:

    - Diary pages (circa. 50 pages)
    - Op Instructions (~200pp)
    - Battle Logs (~400pp)
    - Misc (Lots of code names - ~50pp)
    - Sitreps (~50pp)
    - Int Sums (~50pp)
    - SD Notes (~20pp)
    - ISums (~150 to 200pp)
    - Out Messages (~150pp)


    These are very rough estimates but basically the cost will be £0.08 per pages / no. of people wanting a copy.


    Lee
     
  15. Nijmegen

    Nijmegen Member

    :) Imagine what we could find! Primary sources are the best!
     
  16. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

  17. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    The attempt to get a group together for September 1944 hasn't come to fruition.
    Which is a shame but if I get any further interest, I’ll try again with Sept or other months and other G. diaries.

    Basically we need a minimum of four people seriously interested in order to go ahead with a particular month. (For a group of four people, expect a cost of £20.00 per person for a 1,000+ page diary – to put that in perspective, TNA would charge over £1000.00 for that).
     
  18. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    I have not looked at this thread for a while as I would not be interested in all 30 Corps Diaries.

    However I would be interested in September only as it fits with a current project, and £25 must be a bargain.

    Mike
     
  19. Nijmegen

    Nijmegen Member

    :) DEFINITELY a bargain!
     
  20. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    I will be proceeding with the XXX Corps September 1944 diary over the next couple of weeks. Those still wanting a copy, please drop me either a PM or email.

    Thanks,

    Lee
     

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