I am interested in the service of the 2nd Bttn Essex Regiment from the outbreak of war to their return, to the UK, through the Dunkirk evaculation. I have a great-uncle who served with the Regiment before the war and left the army only to be, almost, immediately called back-up on the outbreak of war to rejoin his regiment Any guidance to further sources would be much appreciated so that I can find out more about what engagements the Regiment may have been involved in during this period Thank you David
I have the 2nd Bn's War Diary for 1940. What is his name and is there anything specfic you are looking for? It's also worth mentioning 2 Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) first reinforcements were 100 men from the 2nd Bn Essex Regt. I have a nominal role with all 100 men named incase he is in there. Cheers Andy
I have the 2nd Bn's War Diary for 1940. What is his name and is there anything specfic you are looking for? It's also worth mentioning 2 Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) first reinforcements were 100 men from the 2nd Bn Essex Regt. I have a nominal role with all 100 men named incase he is in there. Cheers Andy Hi Andy Thank you for your message My great-uncle is Cpl Alfred Hollands 2nd Essex. Alf joined as a boy soldier in the 1930's and served with the 2nd Essex in the Sudan and India before the war. He came home with the BEF in 1940 from Dunkirk and returned in June 1944. Alf was killed in action with 2nd Essex at Essex Wood on 11th June. He served with "C" company. I am interested in where 2nd Essex were in 1939-40 and any particular engagements they participated in. Thank you for your interest and any help you may be able to offer Best wishes David
Hi David, I'm getting ready for work in 30 minutes so I'll have a proper look over the w/end. I'll PM you again if I find/post anything. Incidently there was a recent thread running on here somewhere about Essex Wood in 1944-You may want to use the search engine. Regards Andy
Do you know his service number? I have a Corporal Holland transferred from 2 Essex to 2 Cameronians: If we can discount him I'll go through 2 Essex's War Diary. Cheers Andy
Do you know his service number? I have a Corporal Holland transferred from 2 Essex to 2 Cameronians: If we can discount him I'll go through 2 Essex's War Diary. Cheers Andy Hi Andy Thank you for your posting - Alf's service number is 6010388 - looks like a different person in your records. I am grateful for your help with my enquiry Best wishes David
Hello David, Due to family connections my interest is the 50th (Northumbrian) Division (50 Div). I am assuming that you are aware that the 2nd Battalion, The Essex Regiment (2nd Essex) joined 50 Div on the 20 February 1944 for the purpose of forming one of three battalions of a follow-up brigade – the 56th Infantry Brigade – forming the second wave behind the 231st Infantry Brigade for the assault on Gold Beach on D-Day. It stayed with 50 Div until 9 June and was then detached to the 7th Armoured Division – the Desert Rats – until 8 July when it reverted to 50 Div. It did not stay with 50 Div. I understand that between the evacuation from Dunkirk and D-Day the 2nd Essex did not serve overseas. What you may not know is that the 2nd Essex also served with 50 Div as part of the BEF in 1940. The 2nd Essex, together with the 7th Battalion, The Queens Royal Regiment and the 1st Battalion, The Royal Irish Fusiliers, then formed the 25th Infantry Brigade. It was an independent Infantry Brigade i.e. it was not part of a specific Infantry division. The 50 Div had been reorganised in early 1939 into a Motorised Division and had consequently lost one of its brigades; the 149th Brigade, made up of three battalions of Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. The 150th and 151st Brigade’s were the two remaining Brigades. Although a Motorised Division, 50 Div was used throughout WWII predominantly as an Infantry division and as a consequence, its ‘boots’ strength was made up to three Infantry brigades by attaching various independent brigades from time to time. This is how the 2nd Essex found itself with 50 Div on two separate occasions. The Germans invaded the Low Countries on the 10 May 1940 and the 25th Infantry Brigade was attached to 50 Div on the 11 May and remained so attached until evacuation from Dunkirk; except for the 17 (part), 18 and 19 (part) May. That said, although attached to 50 Div it still led a nomadic existence; DUNKIRK – Retreat To Victory (Major General Julian Thompson - 2008) has the 2nd Essex acting as a reserve for the 2nd Infantry Division at Merville on the 27th May 1940. The Path Of The 50th (Major Ewart W Clay – 1950) refers to events at a ‘high’ level, as follows: 16 May – The 50 Div in a defensive position on the River Dendre, extending from Ath on the right to Ninove on the left. All three brigades were in the line, with the 25th Infantry Brigade on the left. 17 May – The 50 Div ordered to go back to the line of the River Escaut. The 25th Infantry Brigade were detached and remained at Ninove. 19 May – The BEF’s southern flank was threatened due to German penetration of the French lines. The 50 Div was ordered down to hold the line of the canal from Raches to Bethune, with 25th Infantry Brigade now attached again in the centre. Position restored and danger to BEF not as bad as first thought. 20 May – The 25th Infantry Brigade is earmarked for the Arras counter-attack on the 21 May, but due to a lack of transport in the right place at the right time the 151st Infantry Brigade given the job instead. The 25th Infantry Brigade stayed at the canal. 24 May - The 25th Infantry Brigade still at the canal. 27 May – as detailed above. 2 June – The 50 Div is the last British division to leave Dunkirk, but the 25th Infantry Brigade had already been evacuated. General comment by Clay: “The 25th Infantry Brigade fought with great success...at various stages in the withdrawal to the perimeter defences.” 2nd Essex in 1940: Commanding Officer – Lt-Colonel AH Blest Second-in-Command – Major CL Wilson M.C. Adjutant – Captain PC Hinde. I understand there is also a regimental history: The Essex Regiment 1929 to 1945 (Colonel TA Martin – 1952) This book will likely refer to all battalions of The Essex Regiment, not just the 2nd Essex. Given its date of publication and assuming it has not been republished, it may be as rare as hens teeth; The Path Of The 50th was hard to come by and very expensive. As you live near Essex you may find a visit to/discussion with the local library unearths a copy of The Essex Regiment 1929 to 1945! I hope this is of some help to you. Steve.
Three Essex Books here: martin - the essex regiment - AbeBooks 50th Div here clay - The Path Of The 50th - AbeBooks Steve, I'd dispute the 50th were the last Div away at Dunkirk. Elements of the 1st Guards Bde and 3 Bde from 1st Div were still there than and the 42nd Infantry Div. after the remainder of 50 Div left in the early hours of 2nd June. Cheers Andy
Andy, Regarding 50 Div being the last to leave Dunkirk, I got that from 'The Path Of The 50th'; and maybe divisional histories because of their usually partisan nature are not the best source. The same is asserted in 'Monty's Northern Legions' (Patrick Delaforce - 2004), but other books - which are my source of information - are not so unequivocal. Answering your comment that 50 Div left in the early hours of 2nd June, 'A Short History Of The 50th Northumbrian Division' (Major's AHR Baker and B Rust - 1966) states "At 2 a.m on 2nd June it was thought that the whole Division had embarked but it was later found that a lot of 150 Brigade had not got away. They were...taken off during the night of 2nd June. The Division were thus among the last to leave..." DUNKIRK – Retreat To Victory (Major General Julian Thompson - 2008), page 269, states "The last of the BEF to leave were the 1st King's Shropshire Light Infantry...", 3rd Infantry Division. I have also read somewhere, but can’t recall the source, that Monty chose the 3rd Infantry Division for Sword Beach and the 50th Infantry Division for Gold Beach, because he believed the last two divisions out of France in 1940 should have the honour of being the first two back into France in 1944. Do you think this worthy of debate on a separate thread, or have you got the answer ‘nailed’? Kind regards, Steve.
Hi Steve, The source I'm using is Alan Philson's BEF Orbat 1940. In Vol.4 and 5 he has written a short history of all the Div's in France from 10th May until departure. All his work is written from the units War Diaries and other related files at Kew. I've only got around 160 diaries so far of the 1,600 so can't confirm but I have no reason to disbelieve it from what I've read so far in the diaries I have. Ref Monty, The 1944 era doesn't really interest me but I've heard that before about last out first back which I'm not so sure is true - There were Div's in Western France long after Dunkirk and Philson has 3 Div leaving on Dunkirk 1st June. Hopefully I'll confirm the above within the next five years Regards Andy
Hello David, Due to family connections my interest is the 50th (Northumbrian) Division (50 Div). I am assuming that you are aware that the 2nd Battalion, The Essex Regiment (2nd Essex) joined 50 Div on the 20 February 1944 for the purpose of forming one of three battalions of a follow-up brigade – the 56th Infantry Brigade – forming the second wave behind the 231st Infantry Brigade for the assault on Gold Beach on D-Day. It stayed with 50 Div until 9 June and was then detached to the 7th Armoured Division – the Desert Rats – until 8 July when it reverted to 50 Div. It did not stay with 50 Div. I understand that between the evacuation from Dunkirk and D-Day the 2nd Essex did not serve overseas. What you may not know is that the 2nd Essex also served with 50 Div as part of the BEF in 1940. The 2nd Essex, together with the 7th Battalion, The Queens Royal Regiment and the 1st Battalion, The Royal Irish Fusiliers, then formed the 25th Infantry Brigade. It was an independent Infantry Brigade i.e. it was not part of a specific Infantry division. The 50 Div had been reorganised in early 1939 into a Motorised Division and had consequently lost one of its brigades; the 149th Brigade, made up of three battalions of Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. The 150th and 151st Brigade’s were the two remaining Brigades. Although a Motorised Division, 50 Div was used throughout WWII predominantly as an Infantry division and as a consequence, its ‘boots’ strength was made up to three Infantry brigades by attaching various independent brigades from time to time. This is how the 2nd Essex found itself with 50 Div on two separate occasions. The Germans invaded the Low Countries on the 10 May 1940 and the 25th Infantry Brigade was attached to 50 Div on the 11 May and remained so attached until evacuation from Dunkirk; except for the 17 (part), 18 and 19 (part) May. That said, although attached to 50 Div it still led a nomadic existence; DUNKIRK – Retreat To Victory (Major General Julian Thompson - 2008) has the 2nd Essex acting as a reserve for the 2nd Infantry Division at Merville on the 27th May 1940. The Path Of The 50th (Major Ewart W Clay – 1950) refers to events at a ‘high’ level, as follows: 16 May – The 50 Div in a defensive position on the River Dendre, extending from Ath on the right to Ninove on the left. All three brigades were in the line, with the 25th Infantry Brigade on the left. 17 May – The 50 Div ordered to go back to the line of the River Escaut. The 25th Infantry Brigade were detached and remained at Ninove. 19 May – The BEF’s southern flank was threatened due to German penetration of the French lines. The 50 Div was ordered down to hold the line of the canal from Raches to Bethune, with 25th Infantry Brigade now attached again in the centre. Position restored and danger to BEF not as bad as first thought. 20 May – The 25th Infantry Brigade is earmarked for the Arras counter-attack on the 21 May, but due to a lack of transport in the right place at the right time the 151st Infantry Brigade given the job instead. The 25th Infantry Brigade stayed at the canal. 24 May - The 25th Infantry Brigade still at the canal. 27 May – as detailed above. 2 June – The 50 Div is the last British division to leave Dunkirk, but the 25th Infantry Brigade had already been evacuated. General comment by Clay: “The 25th Infantry Brigade fought with great success...at various stages in the withdrawal to the perimeter defences.” 2nd Essex in 1940: Commanding Officer – Lt-Colonel AH Blest Second-in-Command – Major CL Wilson M.C. Adjutant – Captain PC Hinde. I understand there is also a regimental history: The Essex Regiment 1929 to 1945 (Colonel TA Martin – 1952) This book will likely refer to all battalions of The Essex Regiment, not just the 2nd Essex. Given its date of publication and assuming it has not been republished, it may be as rare as hens teeth; The Path Of The 50th was hard to come by and very expensive. As you live near Essex you may find a visit to/discussion with the local library unearths a copy of The Essex Regiment 1929 to 1945! I hope this is of some help to you. Steve. Hi Steve Thank you very much for the information. I am appreciative of all details which help to build up a picture of my Great-Uncle's time with 2nd Essex. Best wishes David
I am trying to trace any information about my grandfather charles hudson's service in world war 2 i believe he served with the 2nd battalion essex regiment having been recalled following service in india 1923 to 1931. His army number was 6004867 and his certificate of service shows him with the bef from sept 1939 to nov 1942 ..can anyone help please
I am trying to trace any information about my grandfather charles hudson's service in world war 2 i believe he served with the 2nd battalion essex regiment having been recalled following service in india 1923 to 1931. His army number was 6004867 and his certificate of service shows him with the bef from sept 1939 to nov 1942 ..can anyone help please Hello and welcome. Can you scan and post the certificate you have? I only ask as the BEF was only in France until June 1940. Cheers Andy
hello and welcome. Can you scan and post the certificate you have? I only ask as the bef was only in france until june 1940. Cheers andy andy, appologies i misread certificate he was with the bef until 30/5/40 and then home until 2/11/42 before moving to the pioneer corps and going back to what i think was north west europe 19/8/1944
Thats sounds more plausable. The battalion in the main left France on the evening of the 29th after spending at least all that day on the beaches and arrived in the UK on the 30th May. What was left of the battalion appears to have travelled back on HMS Whitehall via the pier (Mole) at Dunkirk. I will do some more digging but most of the diary is scribbled rather than typed. Is there any specific area you are looking at or just in general. I don't mind posting the odd bit but the whole diary is around 400 to 500 pages. Andy
Andy, thanks for that. Anthing you can come up with would be great, dad's 74 now and it would be great to give him some idea of what grandad went through, something i can't imagine at my age
