2nd Commando

Discussion in 'Commandos & Royal Marines' started by matteo00, Mar 24, 2017.

  1. matteo00

    matteo00 Active Member

    Hi all!
    Somebody knows how many killed, wounded and missing had 2nd Army Commando during the battle of Salerno (9-18 september) and specially how many were killed during 15-18 september (Pimple hill and hills nort-east Salerno)

    Mat
     
  2. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Mat.

    I cannot give the specifics for 2 Cdo but:

    During their time at Salerno, between them 2 Cdo and 41 Cdo lost 17 Offrs and 54 ORs killed, 15 Offrs and 225 ORs wounded and 1 Offr and 59 ORs missing. These 367 men represented almost half the force that had landed on 9 Sep 43.

    Regards

    Frank
     
  3. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

  4. matteo00

    matteo00 Active Member

    Thanks boys, I know that 41st Royal Marines had 17 killed during 15-18th sept. (pimple hill and Marine hill or commandos hill).

    the battles for Piegolelle (Pigoletti) from 12th to 18th september costed many lives (ca. 75 killed for British and for Germans unknown but 30 deaths confirmed)
     
  5. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Mat.

    I have the Piegolelle story if that helps.

    Frank
     
  6. matteo00

    matteo00 Active Member

    Thanks Frank send me this story.
    I live few miles from Piegolelle but i am curious about story because you may have some informations which i haven't.
    I am doing researchers in Bellizzi cemetery and I am researching German units too; Angus Konstam in his book wrote some inaccuracies.
    Mat
     
  7. matteo00

    matteo00 Active Member

    I also have informations if you are curious i will send you (i have photos too).
     
  8. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Matt.

    No problem. Will send on Mon when I am near my PC.

    Frank
     
  9. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Yes please.

    Frank
     
  10. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Matt.

    These are my briefing notes for the Piegolelle battle.

    Regards

    Frank

    STAND 13 – COMMANDOS AT PIEGOLELLO

    Refer the students to the photograph on Page 65 showing the village of Piegolelle – the Cdos objective.

    Further south towards Salerno, on 14-15 Sep 43, the Germans captured Piegolelle and dug in on three hills: White Cross Hill, The Pimple and The Crag. The hills enjoyed excellent views of much of X (BR) Corps's part of the beachhead and so they needed to be recovered.

    The task was allocated to the Cdos who were waiting in the foothills north of Mercatello. If you recall, they had been moved having been relieved on Dragonea Hill and Monte San Liberatore above Vietri by 6 Y&L on 14 Sep 43. The Cdos were to conduct a recce in force and then be relieved by 169 Inf Div who would then hold the ground.

    Other units, mostly Hampshires from 128 Inf Bde, had already tried and failed to recover these heights so Layforce was brought back into action in an attempt to rectify the situation. 41 RM Cdo were to move up on the right secure Point 339 – the hill directly overlooking Piegolelle whilst, an hour behind them, 2 Cdo was to sweep up the valley on the night of 15 Sep 43 to recapture Piegolelle and The Pimple whilst a tp of tanks were to support the attacks.

    Refer the students to the terrain map on Page 66 showing the ground over which 2 Cdo and 41 RM Cdo operated at Piegolello on 15-17 Sep 43. There is also a contemporary map of the Giovi Hills on Page 67.

    From Mercatello, a narrow lane wound up through the foothills for three miles to Piegolelle through which it twisted south west to run along the hills below The Pimple and White Cross Hill before dropping back down into Salerno.

    The tricky bit was that the force had no idea about German strengths. 128 Inf Bde had only just been pushed off the feature and no one had any idea how strong the German positions were. 2 Cdo was therefore divided into six parallel columns, each of Tp strength, grouped into two forces. 41 RM Cdo opted to divide its force into two and they would leave at 1730 for a silent approach ahead of 2 Cdo so that they could seize the high ground that dominated the valley all the way to Piegolelle before 2 Cdo launched their attack.

    The Cdo force moved out through 8 R Fusiliers at Mercatello at dusk. 41 RM Cdo, with three Tps and a supporting arty barrage, climbed the 7ft terraces whilst the tanks advanced up the winding road towards San Bartolomeo until the armr was stopped by a weak bridge and went no further[1]. The Cdos reached the summit of what later became known as 41 Cdo Hill unopposed by dusk and then, for the next few hours, moved slowly and stealthily forward, along both sides of the hillside, until the entire hillstop had been occupied and all round defensive established for the rest of the night.

    At 1830, behind 41 RM Cdo came 2 Cdo who wound up a goat track to the outskirts of Piegolelle. The moon had not yet risen and the darkness was intense. The terrain through which they climbed was broken and irregular, with rocky hillsides, dense woodlands and steep terraces covered with vines.

    The 1, 2 & 3 Tp group captured 40 PWs en route to The Pimple, swarmed over it and pushed the Germans off. At the same time, Piegolelle was occupied and PWs taken. Lt Col Jack Churchill and Cpl Ruffel operated far out ahead of the 4, 5 & 6 Tp group and entered Piegolelle, whereupon Churchill descended on each German sentry post or weapons pit, made its occupants prisoner and delivered them group by group to be guarded by the waiting runner. When the count was made it amounted to 96 PWs. He even made the German mortar crews carry out their own mortars. The PWs with all their weapons were then handed over to the leading Cdo Tp when it finally caught up. For this audacious feat of arms, Churchill was recommended for the Victoria Cross, which was in due course watered down to a DSO. The force then withdrew back to their start point by midnight but Comd 167 Inf Bde asked them to return to reoccupy both Piegolelle and The Pimple because 169 Inf Bde was not available to occupy the captured ground as intended. So at 0130 on 16 Sep 43, 2 Cdo moved up the the dirt road towards San Bartolomeo. Under arty and MG fire from The Pimple and White Cross Hill which were not back in German hands, 2 Cdo successfully moved up to surround Piegolelle, link up again with 41 RM Cdo on Point 339 and detach two Tps to retake The Pimple although a misunderstanding withdrew that force before it was able to secure the hill.

    When, just before dawn, the two Tps went back to try to take The Pimple, they were met by a withering hail of MG and grenades and forced to withdraw[2]. At the same time, the remains of 2 Cdo fought a close quarter battle inside Piegolelle and pushed the Germans out by mid-morning on 16 Sep 43. They formed a horseshoe defensive position with Piegolelle as the strongpoint in the centre.

    Refer the students to the terrain map on Page 68 showing the 41 RM Cdo attack on 17 Sep 43 to retrieve The Pimple and White Cross Hill.

    German MG and mortar fire continued for the rest of the day and into the night of 16-17 Sep 43 but, for 41 RM Cdo on Point 339, they were not followed up with infantry assaults. German infantry attacked 2 Cdo all day in Piegolelle and many casualties were suffered[3].

    Much of the fire came from the lower slopes of Point 374 – known as The Pimple[4] and Point 390 – known as White Cross Hill[5] so X (BR) Corps decided that these two positions should be prised from the Germans. Securing the two positions would take a lot of pressure off 2 Cdo in Piegolelle. 41 RM Cdo were allocated the task so at 0130 on 17 Sep 43, B, P and Y Tps of 41 RM Cdo moved off Point 339. B Tp was assigned to recapture The Pimple – 300yds beyond the FUP and SL, whilst P and Y Tps concurrently swung left below The Pimple and attempted to retake White Cross Hill. At 0149, the arty barrage provided by the guns of 46 BR Inf Div started and lasted 11 mins. Unfortunately, a map blunder had given the guns the location of the Cdos’ FUP rather than the German positions. There were many casualties. P Tp lost 14 men and Y Tp another 14. The attack that was pressed home came up against a superior German force on both The Pimple and White Cross Hill. The Pimple was briefly captured but, running out of ammunition and down to just eight men, the whole attack was called off. The Pimple had been held for two hours before B Tp withdrew under cover of smoke. The Pimple and White Cross Hill remained in German hands and the two Cdos were back in their own lines by 0730[6] – 41 RM Cdo on Commando Hill and 2 Cdo on the eastern edge of Piegolelle.

    The Cdos positions continued to be shelled all day but died down as the Germans ran out of ammunition. In response, the two Cdos kept up MG and arty fire on the German positions and were helped by the arrival of a Coy of 4.2” mors from 83 US Chem Mor Bn.

    2 Cdo were relieved in Piegolelle on the evening of 17 Sep 43 by 71 Ind Coy Queens of the Beach Group and withdrawn into reserve at Mercatello[7]. 41 RM Cdo were relieved by 7 Ox & Bucks LI and they too withdrew to Mercatello.

    128 Inf Bde mounted a new Bn attack on the White Cross Hill and The Pimple on 18 Sep 43 but was also unsuccessful although the two hills were successfully occupied on 19 Sep 43 after the Germans had withdrawn.

    For 2 Cdo and 41 RM Cdo, the battle was over. They had lost 17 Offrs and 54 ORs killed, 15 Offrs and 225 ORs wounded and 1 Offr and 59 ORs missing. These 367 men represented almost half the force that had landed on 9 Sep 43.

    On 16 Sep 43, Schmalz BG renewed its efforts on the X (BR) Corps front but with no more success. The air force and navy continued to batter German targets, although during an air raid by fighters fitted with radio-controlled bombs, HMS Warspite was hit and disabled which required her to be towed to Malta for repair.

    On the morning of 16 Sep 43, the Germans launched what was to be their last major effort against the beachhead with an attack by 26 Pz Div from Battipaglia north west towards Salerno whilst 16 Pz Div gave support by driving south west from Battipaglia. 56 BR Inf Div, with help from elements of 7 BR Armd Div[8] held 26 Pz Div and 45 US Inf Div held 16 Pz Div. In the afternoon, Hermann Goering Pz Div attacked in the Vietri area supported by elements of 3 Pz Gren Div and 15 Pz Gren Div but they made little progress against 46 BR Inf Div which was by now also bolstered by troops from 7 BR Armd Div.

    In X (BR) Corps area, the German opposition continued to be strong but it was waning. When the Germans pulled back from the British sector on 18 Sep 43, 2/6 Queens supported by tanks entered Battipaglia unopposed.

    On 19 Sep 44, 131 Inf Bde[9] from 7 BR Armd Div advanced to Battipaglia and took over positions captured by 2/6 Queens on 18 Sep 43.

    Along the Fifth Army front, only the Ranger Force and 46 BR Inf Div north of Salerno remained on the defensive on 19 Sep 43. 56 BR Inf Div pushed forward into the interior to eliminate German observation over Montecorvino airfield and VI (US) Corps units entered Eboli and Serre.

    On 18 Sep 43, Allied intelligence reported a general withdrawal and VI (US) Corps ordered its Divs to assume the offensive. Patrols found the Sele-Calore corridor empty and reached Ponte Sele. 3 US Inf Div came ashore at Paestum

    Also on 18 Sep 43, an advance party from 5 BR Inf Div arrived at HQ 36 US Inf Div. Eighth Army was 40 miles away and the link up with 5 BR Inf Div took place at Vallo on the morning of 19 Sep 43.

    For the first ten days, the situation around the Salerno beachhead had been very uncertain but hard fighting and the rapid increase in men and supplies through the later convoys eased the tension.

    The Germans denied Naples to the Allies for another three weeks and the first troops entered the city on 5 Oct 43.

    [1] Two of the three tanks went over the edge at the bridge.

    [2] Capt The Duke of Wellington was killed on 16 Sep 43 whilst attacking The Pimple.

    [3] During the evening, Lt Col Churchill of 2 Cdo played his bagpipes up and down the streets of Piegolelle.

    [4] Colle Pignolillo.

    [5] Pietra di San Stefano.

    [6] The Pimple changed hands many times in the coming days but was finally made untenable by a Coy of US 4.2" mors who fired phosphorous bombs on the hill for five and a half hours.

    [7] Here the two Cdos stayed until being withdrawn from the beachhead back to Sicily on 24 Sep 43.

    [8] On 15 Sep 43, the leading elements of 7 BR Armd Div had arrived and by 16 Sep 43, Fifth Army totalled 170,000 – the equivalent of seven Divs which far outnumbered the Germans.

    [9] Accompanied by C& D Coys 2/4 Hampshires who had been at the Santa Lucia crossroads since landing on 9 Sep 43.
     
    No.4CommandoBairn likes this.
  11. matteo00

    matteo00 Active Member

    Dear minden thanks very much.
    white cross is "Pietra di Santo Stefano", Naples was captured on 1st October, in German sources of 129th, 29th and 67th panzergrenadier White cross is "St.Nicola" and in this battle died ca. 90 british (according CWCG) and unknown germans (30-40 killed confirmed).
    In the night of 15-16 sept, commandos captured 136 panzergrenadiers.
    Duke of Wellington was killed by a handgrenade or mortar fire and his helmet was found by association Salerno1943.
    Giovi hills (Piegolelle, San Nicola, San Bartolomeo, Pignolillo ecc.) were secured only on 20th sept.
    Monte San Liberatore was monument hill according British troops and Dragonea was Dragone hill.
    The sector of Cava de'Tirreni was very bloody: on Dragonea hill many commandos are still missing and on the hills of S.Croce (now Croce di Cava) many were killed in attacks and counterattacks.
    White Cross and pimple hill were for example as mort homme and hill 304 of Verdun during ww1.
    On Giovi [the name of locality derived that in antiquity there were pagans instead christian people, so they believed in Jupiter, Giove in italian] hills there were Kampfgruppe of col.Stroh of 71st Werfer Rgt, few soldiers from Kampfgruppe (KG) Haas from 115th PzGren and soldiers of 29th and 67th PzGren of Major Moldenhauer's KG.
    Stroh's KG was composed with 71st, 129th PzGren and 15 Pion.btl.
    On 18th sept. on pimple hill and Commandos hill there were fighting between commandos and 7th Ox's & bucks and 129th and 67th Pzgren; the following morning commandos attacked but found german positions deserted and there were only German dead bodies in decomposition, as British bodies.
    An Italian association, Salerno1943, found two commandos on pimple and one german on Commandos hill, later identified as MG42 machingunner Corporal (Obergefreiter) Walter Prochel, killed by a bomb on 18th sept.; British autorities are searching commandos names and DNA instead Prochel "ended his war" in february 2016, when he was buried in Cassino German War Cemetery.
    Few battles (I think between 12nd-15th sept.) were fought also in the extreme eastern Giovi hills ( near Pontecagnano, northern where Hampshire landed on 9th sept. and where fought against I/PzGren 64 in Magazzeno): Hill 236, south of S.Nicola, and Hill 419, east of Commandos hill.
    Regards from Operation Avalanche bridghead (Salerno), Matteo.
     
    No.4CommandoBairn likes this.
  12. Kai P G HAWKINS

    Kai P G HAWKINS New Member

    Good Morning Matteo,
    This contact comes from New Zealand. It concerns the actions on White Cross Hill of the 1/4th Hampshires during the period you have been researching.
    My partners Father was in action on White Cross hill during the time The Germans attempted their retaking of that position.He was Major J W Tinniswood and was awarded the Military Cross for his bravery under fire. After the war he moved to New Zealand and Took up farming on Banks Peninsula, in Canterbury.
    We are coming to Salerno in September (approx.the 24th ) and intend to visit the area so Susan and her brother can experience and stand upon the place their father was in September 1943.
    We would appreciate your help with identifying the actual spot ,even though we think we are fairly certain that we have got it.
    How ever anything would be greatly appreciated.
    Many thanks in anticipation.

    Kai Hawkins, totemsouth@clear.net.nz
     
  13. matteo00

    matteo00 Active Member

    Ok :) with big pleasure. I will send an email to you
     
  14. wictod

    wictod Junior Member

    Hi minden (Frank), Matteo

    Very interesting briefing notes on the Commandos at PIEGOLELLO... My Dad was there as part of 2 Special Service Signal Brigade supporting No 2 & 41 Commando, I also had the good fortune to visit the area in 2012 inlcuding "The Pimple". Shortly before he passed in 1982 and at the time of the Falklands conflict when I was 18 he recounted a few stories about Salerno. two of those brief mentions were 1. That he escorted with an officer a whole troop / unit (forget the exact term) of Germans from a building in the area after a brief exchange of fire in which they appeared to be happy to be removed from the fighting and came out without hesitation. I'm now wondering whether this had anything to do with the Jack Churchill's exploits mentioned above although not sure what a runner is, my Dad was a Signalman? 2. The mention of American chemical mortar team... he said that a group of Americans from a chemical mortar team came running down the road shouting to the Commandos that there were Germans ahead a little unsure of what to do next... they were promptly told in a certain way to get stuck in... which by all accounts they did very effectively. Anyway, these stories were told to me a long time ago and I want to make the point that in no way am I suggesting the young Americans at the time didn't know what they were doing.. it was just told to me that way from the horses mouth...

    Regards...
     
  15. matteo00

    matteo00 Active Member

    Hi, well, Germans were captured because hundreds of them were targets of mortars in the early hours of 15th September and many were killed so 136 gave themselves to Commandos. Churchill and his men captured all these Germans and later they attacked for the second time the hill but Panzergrenadiers had MGs and mortars and many, among the 6th Duke of Wellington, were killed. Americans were from 83rd Chemical Battalion who were in support of commandos on 18th september. I think your Dad was a Signaller or Artillery signaller, I think, who helped mortars to shot areas. Perhaps he helped to halt the German attack. My Grandfather remember that when he was a little boy he saw days after the battle on the hills of Giovi, many bodies and one British had a knife in his throat.
     
  16. matteo00

    matteo00 Active Member

    So... Has somebody an account on the attack on Pimple hill of 18th September for example War Diaries or other documents?
     
  17. wictod

    wictod Junior Member

    Hi Matteo,

    Yes he was a Commando Signaller, The Special Service Brigade Signal Troop wore green berets. Its a bit confusing as each troop often swapped men and aligned them to various Commandos when there was a demand etc. Later in 1944 he was part of 1 Special Service Brigade in support of No6 and 45RM post D Day. For the Italy campaign he was in 2 Special Service Brigade.

    With regards to war diaries etc, the only one I have seen is on the CVA Commando Veterans Archive website. It covers all of the battles including Piegolelle..

    'Salerno Diary' | Commando Veterans Archive

    Regards
     
  18. matteo00

    matteo00 Active Member

    Thank you very interesting. One question is (I've read about 9th september) what German troops were in Salerno on that day? Perhaps 16 Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung?
     
  19. wictod

    wictod Junior Member

    This is a very interesting thread with some excellent pictures of the Germans defending Salerno... From a Commando perspective, I believe they encountered elements of the Hermann Goring division in the hills above Vietri early in the battle. There's a picture with two Germans on a bridge, you might recognise the location, I'm sure I drove across this several times when I travelled between Amalfi and Salerno a few years back.. Division "HG" at Salerno • Axis History Forum
     
  20. No.4CommandoBairn

    No.4CommandoBairn Well-Known Member

    I've got a hotel in Vietri booked for 7th-10th September for the 75th Anniversary. I almost had the flights booked but chickened out at the last moment - going to check prices and times of trains before I attempt to book again.

    Dad volunteered to fight with No.2 and was in Sicily with them, too.

    If anybody else is heading over from round here, please get in touch.
     

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