2nd Bn SG Guardsman Captured in Italy

I was recently contacted by a new forum member requesting some help. Their Grandfather was a SG Guardsman during the war in italy and was captured by the enemy whilst on patrol with a sergeant who was killed in the incident.

I promised I would make a thread about it in case anyone might be able to help down the line,

We know very little about the individual, or the name of the sergeant. But there is a possibility he was in cassino, and may have been 2nd Bn SG.

We have no name for the sergeant either (initially it was believed he was an officer but it now looks as though this isnt true)

Now, a recent post from another user, along with the location Cassino, made me think that he could have been with "S" Coy SG/2nd BN coldstream. But I have dug up nothing so far regarding anyone lost on patrol (Although cassino is a big grey area thus fa for the 5 men lost whilst 2 CG was there).

I am posting this in the hopes that someone may have a breif outline of what 2 SG did in Italy, or even have the war diaries.

I have reccomended that they apply for his war record, which may give us dates sometime down the line but in the mean time assistance from anyone who knows anything about 2SG would be greatly appreciated. My first guess is that the incident may have been Monte Cammino... but thats just a hunch considering we dont know when he was taken.

 

Adam - I maybe stating the obvious but have you checked for any unit files in WO 361?

 

Adam - I maybe stating the obvious but have you checked for any unit files in WO 361?

Hi Drew, Im sorry to say that I think my war diary days at TNA are over... for a bit at any rate (plus im in italy and just recieved the request fo help). Whilst actually having the war diaries for 2 SG would obviously be ultimately required, I was hoping someone might be able to post something about the history of 2 SG, (or actually have the diaries of course).

I was wondering how close 2 SG got to Cassino, as it is the only source of reference I have. Were they 24th Gds Bde by any chance?

 

I think Di maybe your best bet then (sorry Di). I think she may have the SG history if nowt else.

 

Whilst no expert on this I did a quick search under 2SG for those who are buried at Cassino (Posability?) using Geoffs Search Engine and can find only one SGT 2 SG (A Military Medal Holder);-

Name: LITTLE, ROBERT HERBERT
Initials: R H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Warrant Officer Class II (C.S.M.)
Regiment/Service: Scots Guards
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Age: 24
Date of Death: 12/11/1943
Service No: 2695982
Awards: M M
Additional information: Son of John Stephen and Elizabeth Ann Little, of Crosby, Isle of Man.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: III. C. 20.
Cemetery: CASSINO WAR CEMETERY

Best wishes


Jim

 

2 SG were part of 201 Gds Bde which landed as the 56 BR Inf Div's reserve on 9-10 Sep 43 at Salerno. 1 SG were part of 24 Gds Bde who landed at Anzio on 22-23 Jan 44.

1 Gds Bde were at Cassino and made up of 3 WG, 2 COLDM GDS and 3 GREN GDS.

If I recall correctly, men from 2 SG would be buried at Cassino because 201 Gds Bde were involved in the battle for Monte Camino, south of Cassino but not involved in the Jan-May 44 battles for Cassino - the dates certainly match.

Regards

FdeP

 

To add to Frank's comments -

I note that John Ellis refers to 201 Guards Brigade being temporarily attached to the 5th British Infantry Dvision following their Garigliano River crossings near to Minturno. They were "committed on 21st (Jan 1944)....The Scots Guards went to the aid of the Yorks and Lancs who had been almost immediately pushed off Monte Natale.."

Quite a number of 2SG men are buried at Minturno CWGC cemetery from their actions during the latter part of 1943 and the first two months of 1944.

Richard

 

Hi Adam
As the above have mentioned, the 2SG were at Camino not Cassino they were part of the 201 Guards Bgde and the date of the death of the CSM coincides with the battle / s for Camino
Regards
Mike (rotherfield)

 

Thanks for help everyone, I believe the liberation questionnaires may be a very good way forward... if one exists for this guardsman. A date of capture and Bn is what we really need.

I have asked the original enquirer to come forward and join in the discussion and see if they can add anything, hopefully something will surface which will allow a more in detailed invitation.

 

Hello all,

I am the original enquirer that Phaethon was kind enough to help. I can add only a little to the puzzle but hopefully someone may know something so that I can fill in a few blanks.

My grandad's name was William (Bill) Moyes and he was captured in Italy after having seen combat in North Africa. He was part of the Scots Guards, as has already been established, and from Thornton in Fife (he enlisted in Kirkcaldy, 1942 when he was 18). Details of his capture vary whoever you talk to in the family but I'm fairly certain it was around the time of Vesuvius erupting as my grandad always talked about witnessing the event and helping a little with the aftermath. I believe he was captured when on patrol with his sergeant and another soldier after a brief firefight which killed one man and seriously injured the other two (my grandad had a scar on his right cheek where a bullet had gone through). I remember he told me that he woke up in a hospital where he was interviewed by German soliders before being patched-up and marched to a PoW camp somewhere, I believe, outside of Berlin. The sergeant, who was also captured, died of his wounds.

Unfortunately, that is all the information I have on his capture. I was hoping to find out a location in Italy where it happened as well as the name of the PoW camp he was in (if it helps he told me there were Americans, Brits and Russians there). I have my grandad's army number (2701233) and a cigar box of medals and flashes, nothing more. His battalion and any other information would be greatly appreciated.

Having read through this thread I am intrigued at the possibility of finding his Liberation questionnaire. However, knowing him and what he was like, I wonder if he even filled one out. To access these do I have to get in contact with the National Archives or can they be found somewhere online? Also, it may be naive of me to think so but would there not be a record of PoWs, their army numbers and what camp the were in?

I thank you all in advance for your help in this matter.

Cameron

 

Cameron.

If your grandfather was witnessed the Mar 44 eruption then I would suggest that he was in 1 SG. They were withdrawn from Anzio in early Mar 44 and went back to the Sorrento Peninsula along with the rest of 24 Gds Bde. He would have witnessed the eruption of Vesuvius from there.

regards

fdeP

 

Having narrowed it down to post-March 1944 we are looking at 1 SG. 2 SG had also been pulled back to Pozzuoli with 1 SG. Gdsm Moyes must have been one of the 480 other ranks and 17 officers that were transferred from 2 SG to 1 SG; 2 SG returning to the UK as a cadre in early April.

Assuming the roll of honour in Erskine's The Scots Guards 1919-1955 is 100% correct (and I've not missed anyone), there are two possible candidates listed having died as POWs after Mar 44:

1 SG 2700550 L/Sgt Walker J S MM died 28/10/44 while PW in Italy
2 SG 3188308 Sgt Wallace G died 21/01/45 while PW in Germany

Wallace isn't mentioned in the text but Walker is for his MM at Castel di Brolio on 05/07/43, with a footnote explaining that he was "taken prisoner during the final stages of the Battle of Monte Catarelto in October, and was later killed by the Germans while attempting to escape." Catarelto ran from 28 Sep to 3 Oct 44. Walker was in C Coy when he won the MM.

Has anyone got access to the British Prisoners of War lists that might pin down a date for Gdsm Moyes?

 

Hello again and happy new year to you all,

I have found a little bit more information about my grandad's capture, or at least the sergeant who was with him. The name of the sergeant was James Small Walker from the 1st Battalion Scots Guards - one of the two mentioned in a post on this thread. As he was captured along with my grandad and the fact that he witnessed the Vesuvius eruption, it would point to him being in 1st Battalion, not 2nd as I had thought. They were both taken to a hospital in Mantova (It. Mantua) and the sergeant is buried in a British cemetary in Padua.

Can someone point me in the direction of information about the Battle of Monte Catarelto or even just its location? I have searched for the site on maps but cannot find it nor any details of the fighting. As well a this, is there anywhere to read a good account of the 1st Battalion Scots Guards' exploits during the Second World War?

I am also still waiting for requested information from LIberation Questionnaires and am still attempting to find where his PoW camp was.

Thanks again.

 

That was a good guess, then.

NMP have reprinted the regimental history and it's a steal at the moment. It covers all battalions which I think will be important as your grandfather could have served with both battalions.

Glad it's all coming together.

 

That's great information, thank you! To know the general area where he was captured and to even see official documents with his name on them is wonderful.

Thank you again and I'll let you know if I ever get information about from my grandad's liberation questionnaire or if I find the Stalag he was in.