2nd Bn Royal Sussex, later 10th Bn Parachute Regt

Hi Wtd45,
I also have the book 'The Tenth' he is not mentioned in it. His name is Pte Charles Upperton. Dopes any one know the orbat of the 1st Airborne Divs Seaborne tail. I have reason to believe my grandfather was part of that. In his discharge book it says 23 09 44 'at sea'

 

Hi Carole

The Tenth Battalion the Parachute Regiment were formed at Kabrit from a nucleus of men of the 2nd Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment on 1/1/1943. However, the first parachute course for the battalion was on 17/12/42 at Kabrit. 2 Royal Sussex Regiment initially provided 8 officers including the Lt Col K.B.I Smythe, 31 senior ranks, 24 junior ranks and 104 other ranks. The Tenth Battalion was initially called 'S' Battalion until being given the designation The Tenth Battalion, The Parachute Regiment on 3/2/43.

If you have any further questions about the history of 10 PARA please ask. I also have some knowledge on 2 Royal Sussex Regiment.

Graham

Hi FT,
Would you have a nominal roll of those that transfered from 2 RSR to the Tenth Para Battalion?
Steve

 

Hi Wtd45,
I also have the book 'The Tenth' he is not mentioned in it. His name is Pte Charles Upperton. Dopes any one know the orbat of the 1st Airborne Divs Seaborne tail. I have reason to believe my grandfather was part of that. In his discharge book it says 23 09 44 'at sea'

This would be 2nd Seaborne Tail, as 1st Seaborne Tail was already in Holland by then

 

I have just re- read 'The Tenth'. It mentions a Picture Post article dated 18 Mar 1944, the article is about paratroopers featuring 10 Para whilst they were based in and around Somerby Leicestershire. McDonald Hastings the famous journalist took part in a Whitely jump with the Bn and also took numerous pics in the aircraft and Ringway airfield. I have just ordered a copy. Has any one seen the article?

 

Hello Carole I am a new member today I dont know if this help any but my father was in the RSR 2nd Battalion he fought in Sicily and Italy /Monte Cassino I am pretty certain he was never in the 10th parachute regiment though, he also served in the London Irish Rifles, could you tell me what is your connection with the RSR 2"nd Batt because I would like to find out more about the.m Cheers

 

............ location of the death of the RMO Captain Drayson?

Medic, did you ever find that info ???
Captain Draysons field burial was "in wood North of House Sonnenberg. Map C.5."
My father L.F Carter - Serjeant B Coy 10th Bn was buried in the same location.
Captain Drayson would most likely have been buried close to where he died.

He may have been one of the casualties of the detached 10th men who where trying to get to Oosterbeek that evening, or he was wounded & transported there.
Its my understanding (but not confirmed) that Sonnenberg House was planned to be used as a field hospital, so that might well have been his objective.
According to reports of other detachments who were using the house & its grounds, it did have some form of casualty dressing station, but I guess that would have been true of any house with a roof at the time.

 

Regret enquiries continuing as the police would say....but no closer to an answer.....you say 'other detachments'...would you like to add a little?

 

Medic, re "other detachments", from my research it was a mix of odds & sods

‘De Sonnenberg’ was a large house located on the Sonnenberglaan on the outskirts of Oosterbeek - the grounds are now a nursing & sheltered accommodation complex.

From what I can find, 9th Coy R.E. who were the main group & who set up there during 18 & 19th & in the subsequent days of fighting "were never forced to give a yard of ground” from the house & grounds. During that time they were instrumental is establishing the Heveadorp ferry crossing.
On 19th as darkness fell, 12 x 1st Para Sqd & 60 x 4th Para Sqdr arrived & set up with 9th to defend that sector of the perimeter. Also that evening a troop & 17 Pdr from 2nd (Oban) Anti-Tank Battery arrived.

10th breakout on the morning of 20th crossed through the house grounds on route to the close by Div HQ.
156th were bogged down for a number of hours in "Hacketts Hollow", the woodland depression where the 4th Brigade battle marker is. That is some 300m from the house grounds.

 

Thanks but given the route of the 10th it is unlikely Drayson was working near the Sonnenberg.....my thoughts are the RAP where he was killed would have been in the woods south of the pumping station....but no-one has as yet given a location...I suspect and others do also that his body was moved to a central burial point possibly by Father McGowan.....

 

Thanks but given the route of the 10th it is unlikely Drayson was working near the Sonnenberg.....my thoughts are the RAP where he was killed would have been in the woods south of the pumping station....but no-one has as yet given a location...I suspect and others do also that his body was moved to a central burial point possibly by Father McGowan.....

According to McGowan's burial list Capt Drayson and Sgt Carter, together with Sgt Loyshon (Leyshon GPR) (5730411) Sgt Hunt (4538680) and Pte M Probert (1492867) were buried in Graftombe Wood (map ref 789689) by Revd McGowan. Date of burial not given but between 19th September and 1st October.
However this information does not conform exactly with that given in the current edition of the RoH which puts Leyshon, Probert and Hunt as fb Valkenburglaan - but it is certainly in the same area

John

 

John & Medic, I have a very old CWGC paper that lists 10 Bn casualities
Capt Drayson & Sgt Carter are listed as F.B. (in woods) north of House Sonnenberg.
Map ref 789689 on the battle map (as near as scale permits) is a spot north of the house in the woods to the east side of Valkenburglaan & on another modern map it is show as Graftombe Wood.

I do not have a listing for Sgt Leyshon as he was GPR.
But I do have L.Sgt Hunt & Pte Probert as they are 10 Bn & are listed as F.B. "100mtr south of junction Valkenburglaan & Graaf van Rechhterenlaan" and that as near as makes no diff is the same place in Graftombe Wood. So it looks like Pdr McGowan's list is correct.

That begs the question, where can I get that list as it will confirm another piece of my fathers story.

Also see my stuff on http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/airborne/31422-b-coy-10th-parachute-battalion-1944-a-2.html

 

Mike

The "CWGC list" that you have is almost certainly a copy of the Roll of Honour - we hope that an updated version of this will be available shortly.
I attach a copy of the Rev'd McGowan list - you'll see that it's dated 2nd October but it would obviously have taken some time to be smuggled back to Allied lines. I know from talking to Major Tony Hibbert that he carried a large list of casualties when he came back on Operation Pegasus 1 on 23rd October.

John

 

This is of course their first burial place and IIRC McGowan said he found the body of Drayson lying at 'his RAP' in the woods after it took several hits from mortars/artillery shells......this list is well known.....

 

Thanks John - TOP JOB

 

Hi Folks,
Does anyone have nominal rolls for the rifle companys, D company, and HQ company of 10 Para 1943/4? If any one is interested i have the nominal roll of HQ Wing 2 RSR of their move in 1935 from Karachi to Sudan.
Steve

 

Medic, re my comment 09-08-2011 on Capt Drayson
Its my understanding (but not confirmed) that Sonnenberg House was planned to be used as a field hospital, so that might well have been his objective.

I have read thru a number of books & the Wikipedia entry that confirms more or less as I was told it originally by a 4 Para Sq RE vet those 20 or so years ago.

18 Sept - 133 RAMC had a bad drop & were scattered over a wide area between Ede & DZ-Y with only aprx 50% strength functional on the DZ. They used the cafe Zuid Ginkel as a MDS for a few hours & moved off to the sanatorium in Wolfheze around nightfall.
19 Sept the 2 surgical teams and the majority of the missing sections had regrouped at Wolfheze & set it up as a MDS to support 4th Bde advance on the Koepel high ground.
Late afternoon during 4 Bde withdrawal over the railway & with the enemy pressure on Wolfheze, Lt-Col Alford with 41 OR & 2 surgical teams moved to Oosterbeek to establish a MDS.

So my "Sonnenberg" understanding should have been Oosterbeek

The roads through the woods from Wolfheze to Oosterbeek suitable for vehicles included Graaf van Rechhterenlaan & Valkenburglaan although it is far from the most direct; that being the main road Wolfhezerweg.
But if Capt Drayson was in a forward position with a RAP he would have been part of the Bde withdrawal & could have crossed the rail line at the tunnel & turned left into the woodland tracks or crossed at a rail section without an embankment & straight onto the woodland roads.

 

Mike,

Captain Drayson is reported as being killed by Captain McGowan who apparently found him soon after the fgihting was over on one of his searches at his RAP in the woods north of the railway line.....I think he was killed just before the order to withdraw came.
Also on this day the CO of 133 reported that they worked under a 'motorway bridge' close to the railway line east of Wolfheze...so I feel this is close to the Recce Sqn ambush site.
The remnants of 133 worked from a house called Pietersberg down the road from the Tafelberg in Oosterbeek..I have no reports of any 'large scale' medical facilities in the Sonnenberg area at best what we would call a Company Aid Post...one medic with a first aid bag..certainly not a 'field hospital' and in purely RAMC terms there were none of these at Arnhem, the biggest unit was the three field ambulances who set up a 'Main Dressing Station'......hope this helps in some small way .

 

Medic, I doubt Capt Drayson was killed north of the railway.
F.B. at Arnhem were invariably close to where a solder died. It makes no sense that he was found north of the railway & his body transported for FB in a wood south of the railway at 789689.
There were a high number of FB north of the railway; along Dreijenseweg, the area around the crossroads & Amsterdamseweg, with those killed in the withdrawal around the LZ-L & Johannahoeve grounds. Most all were buried by the Germans & I guess ASAP. It just does not make sense that Drayson was left until McGowan arrived.
Pdr McGowan's list does not indicate he went north of the railway. All the graves "seen" by him are located south of the railway, the exception was 793700 with 20 graves. Thats around the level crossing at the south of Dreijenseweg & the most forward positions reached by 156 Bn.

I understand field hospital is MDS in RAMC terms. I just used the words as told me by the 4 Para RE veteran

 

The red dot gives the burial locations, don't let you fool you by the FB locations. bodies were taken from arnhem to oosterbeek and vice versa, a good example are the men of 10 battalion at 6KM marker, these were taken by germans from surrounding woods, to make this photograph, also after reburial by the War Grave Units, sometimes map coordinates were wrongly written down

 

Mike,

Thanks for your observations.....I guess we will jsut have to agree to differ.....my orignal question still stands is where was the RAP of the 10th Btn located on the 19th during their action near the pumping station...as Philip says bodies were not always killed near their first burial spot, some bodies were left for days where they were killed - the Brits were just as bad as this.....Kussin for example left for about 2 days before being buried. The last recorded sighting to the best of my knowledge of Captain Drayson is by Lt Brian Carr who saw him in the woods close to the pumping station - this was written in 1944......I think this particular topic has run it's course and I stand by what I've written here and in the past.....let's close it unless some new info comes to light......I don't think we will ever know for certain where the RAP was......