There is a photograph of A13's on rail flatcars from IWM site captioned: A13 Cruiser Mk IV tanks being loaded onto railway trucks at an Egyptian quayside after being unloaded from ships, 5 October 1940. Assuming these are from the Apology convoy, and the vehicles belong to 2nd RTR, is the 61 seen on the front hull it's AoS symbol? Prior to and during Operation Compass, was 2nd RTR the senior unit with 4th Armoured Brigade, and was this brigade also senior? If so, the '61' would be on a red background? regards, Jack
The turret of the A13 is pointed to the rear so that is the rear of the tank. I cannot see a similar plate on the other tank and there are no other visible markings so I believe it is not an AOS number at all.
Wess, that would make sense since the 61 was from the range of serial markings supposedly introduced the following year in February. Andreas - going by listings of units of that time period, 7th Hussars is almost always listed first, and going by that, it would indeed make them the Senior regiment. In the same vein, 4th Brigade (of which they were part of) is also described first, followed by the 7th Bridage. So the 7th Hussars are the Senior Regiment of the Senior Brigade, and this further nulls the possibility of the 61 above being an AoS marking, since this set of numbers were to belong to the Junior brigade. As put forth here http://desertrats.org.uk/org.htm#Late1939 then I have to interpret 2nd RTR as the Second Senior (or Middle) Regiment of the Senior Brigade, which would make their AoS marking 25 on red backing? regards, Jack
Answering myself, but it's likely the squadron symbols were the only markings applied, but still interested in learning what 2nd RTR should have had in the way of complete markings - DavidW, have you found anything? regards, Jack
Hello Jack, I have found the reasoning behind the 61 on the rear of the A13 of 2 RTR arriving in Egypt. If you google IWM - E674 and look at the first result you will see another picture . As for markings I can find no pictures of 2RTR tanks but have found a 1RTR Mk VIB who sported an AOS of 24 on a red background (left track guard when looking from the front) and the early 7th Armd Div symbol of a white circle on a Red square (on the right track guard). This was from Osprey Vanguard 1 British 7th Armoured Division 1940 - 45 by John Sanders. 1RTR was in 7th Arm'd Brigade at this time whereas 2RTR was in 4th Arm'd Brigade. Armour Camouflage and Markings North Africa 1940 to 1943 by George Bradford also shows 1RTR as 24 on Red and lists 2RTR as 29 on Green (The 2nd in seniority) with 7th Hussars being senior. The Bradford book does apparently have some inaccuracies but may be correct here. If you show these markings then the squadron symbols would also appear on the turret being painted at the same time to break the monotony . Kind regards, Will.
Will, thanks for that. So the '61' is a remnant of being with 1st Armoured. The suggested 29 on green does throw the proverbial spanner in the works, but does apply for later periods when 2nd RTR was assigned to 7th Armoured brigade for the Battleaxe and Crusader battles. regards, Jack
Jack. Sorry for the delay. I have three sources, George Bradford, quoted above. William Platz, & Dick Taylor. Platz puts 2 RTR in 4th AB during "Compass" as the second Regiment, so 25 on red. During Crusader they are second Regiment of 7th AB, (which I think maybe 68, on green). Taylor has 2 RTR in "Compass" as above. During the Spring of 1941, second Regiment in 4th AB so 52 on red. He lists 61 as being used by Snr Reg in Jnr Brig, early '41, only. But Platz states that... 61 (on green) seems to have been used by 2 RGH during Crusader & possibly by 3 RTR in early 1941. Sorry for having muddied the waters. It would appear that there is a niche in the market for a well researched definitive book on the subject of AOS!
Hi David, thanks for all that. For now, only concerned with up to and including Compass. So with what you have provided and re-affirmed, I think it's sorted out. regards, Jack
I have all the books mentioned, plus Hodges and Taylor (both versions), and also most of Malcolm Bellis's books. I think Dick Taylor's books are well researched, as is the second Hodges and Taylor, but not all these always agree. I think the problem, particularly in the desert, is that units, even brigades, were switched between higher formations so often, that the markings seen on photographs do not necessarily show the actual situation, as there must have been a huge number of occasions when the repainting of markings was not exactly the activity of highest priority! And what about ad hoc units created when a couple of units were so mauled that they had to be amalgamated? Or, for that matter, the issue of a repaired vehicle to a unit other than the one it originally came from. You can make an accurate model of a precise vehicle on the strength of a single photograph (even if you need to guesstimate those on the other side or other end), but you may not be certain of the unit, or chain of command, of the vehicle at the time. It is certainly nice to be able to identify the unit and formation of the tank that you model or are interested in (if you look on the forums that deal with German vehicles, they even discuss the names of the crew) but I don't think we are ever going to be able to do this 100% of the time, or not with 100% certainty. Chris
Chris, all good points - thanks kindly. When I do get around to modelling the A13 in the western desert 1940, I think any markings beyond squadron symbols will likely fall under the category of artistic license. Something that obviously should be included, the census number, will have to be left out as these were quite specific for each and every vehicle, and I 'm sure these are even more difficult to determine. regards, Jack
Very good points. Really? If you could provide just one for 2nd RTR A squadron, that would be outstanding! Sorry, I thought that you meant tying Census numbers to types of tanks, not Census numbers to individual tanks within Regiments. Although I know that someone has started to do the latter, and it is out there on the internet somewhere. Needless to say, if I can re-find it, I'll post a link.
So far all I can find is the list on mafva.net (Can't post a link on this forum for some reason). It just ties Census numbers to types & marks of AFV prior to 1948.
There is also a resource linked on this forum. Search in Weapons Technology & Equipment/Vehicle names & Census numbers. The link is in 4th post. Sorry I can't seem to copy & paste in this forum's reply boxes.
Yes, the working pdf file from mmpbooks: http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/tables/Vehicle_Names_V3.pdf I've checked it, only one listing for an A13 with 2nd RTR, listed with B Sqn and knocked out Dec. 29 1941. I suppose I could work backwards, and cross out those census numbers that don't qualify, and just make one up?
