2cm Panzerabwehrbüchse Panzerbüchse 785 German Anti Tank Rifle

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Drew5233, May 5, 2009.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I've not seen this weapon before. Anyone know whats it's called and I'll amend the title.

    1.
    [​IMG]

    2.
    [​IMG]
    Taken in Russia
     
  2. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Andy,

    Its a 2 cm Panzerabwehrbüche 785 (s).

    I will try and find a picture after tea!

    Regards
    Tom
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Tom,

    Title amended :)
     
  4. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Found this item

    [​IMG]
    German 20mm PzB 785(s) ‘Solothrun s18-1100'


    [​IMG]


    Produced in 1936, the Swiss Solothrun s18-1100 was a well designed anti tank weapon and sometimes referred to as the Model 36 or M36. The Model 36 was developed from the earlier 1934 model, which was not only produced for the Swiss army, but also the German, Dutch, Italian and Hungarian army. It was used on a two wheeled carriage or dismounted on its bipod. Unlike other anti tank rifles, this was a semi automatic rifle using a five or ten round magazine.
    Calibre: 20 mm
    Length: 2160 mm
    Barrel length: 1300 mm
    Weight complete: 54.7 Kg
    Muzzle velocity: 750 mps
    Armour penetration: 15-18 mm at approx 300 m
    Rate of fire: 15-20 rpm
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    Regards
    Tom
     
  5. thats one big rifle dudes
     
  6. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    The pen of this Rheinmetall weapon was 27 mm-35 mm (300m/90 degr), depending on the quality of the armour (which differed a lot in those days).

    By my knowledge the weapon was never procured by the Germans, but only used from loot. The Germans had tested the 2 cm weapon pre-war but considered it too bulky and the recoil action too uncomfortable. That's why the Germans used the 7,92 mm AT guns as their standard infantry light AT device. Obviously these weapons proved more effective in breaching semi-hard cover of opposing infantry than armour pen, which was quite modest as it came to the low mass 7,92 round.

    Already before the invasion in the West the Germans got hold of a few dozen [at least 52 off] of these weapons (with ammo) when a shipment was restraint on German soil that was in transit to the Netherlands. The Dutch had procured this weapon [340 off c/w ammo] for its reconnaissance units and light cavalry units. Due to the German blockade only few weapons [38 off] eventually reached the Netherlands, which caused the weapon to be scarcely used in May 1940. Still, 4th Panzerdivision lost quite some wheeled AFV's and a few tanks due to these weapons used by the regular AT-gun-deprived Dutch forces in the far southeast of the country (known as the province Limburg). Particularly in the 10 May (morning) skirmishes around the city of Maastricht, the Germans got to know this weapon. They proved highly effective against the poorly armoured German SdKfz 221 and 231 as well as the PzI and II. Quite a number were taken out.

    The Dutch version came with a standard undercarriage with small wheels, making the >40 kg heavy weapon easily transportable. The Finnish army also used the weapon in a light AA role, as did the Germans.
     
    James S likes this.
  7. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Thats some rifle alright!
     
  8. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    18-1100 S-tank gun:
    [​IMG]
    German designation PzB 785 (s)
    size: 20x138
    We can consider it a small gun running in semi auto or burst, it could serve as anti-aircraft weapons. Hungary and Italy had also adopted, and models these countries were sold or capture by the German army there are only changing the letter (i) Italy and (ü) for Hungary
    [​IMG]
    Here is a model somewhere on the eastern front with his tripod without the butt and equipped with optical
     
  9. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    The Dutch airforce also used this very same Solothurn gun, that was fitted in the nose section of the Fokker T-V medium bomber. It was also a hand operated gun, capable of firing 2 cm HE shells in (manual) rapid fire mode. It was said to be highly successful, surprisingly enough. The guns had been ordered in 1937. Since only 16 T-V's were built, it is likely that about that number of guns were ordered. That was about two years ahead of the army demand for the 340 off AT-rifles/guns.
     
  10. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA Patron

    Is that the one that swaged the projectile down to a smaller diameter as it went down the barrel? I can't find a reference for the one I mean but I saw one once at Aberdeen proving ground. The inside barrel diameter actually tapered from the breach to the muzzle.

    Dave
     
  11. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    Is that the one that swaged the projectile down to a smaller diameter as it went down the barrel? I can't find a reference for the one I mean but I saw one once at Aberdeen proving ground. The inside barrel diameter actually tapered from the breach to the muzzle.

    Dave

    Aren't you refering to the standard German Panzerbuchs PB 38/39? That used a .50 cartridge but a 7,62 round.
     
  12. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA Patron

  13. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  14. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

  15. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    In the end this kind of weapon was pretty useless. It is quite amazing that the Germans developed this gun during the war, when even in sept 1939 the good old PAK 3,7 cm already proved pretty useless against medium tanks. The 'behind armour' effect of a 0,12 kg round is very modest, even when high velocity makes up for the poor mass impact. The standard French antitank gun, the 2,5 cm Hotchkiss, suffered from the same problem.

    It is one of those German projects that didn't pay its return on investment, I think. The squeeze bore principle is pretty interesting however.
     
  16. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi,

    Found this reference in the War Diary of 56th British Infantry Division for Aug 1943, and didn't know if this is the same weapon?

    12 August 1943
    1040 [TOO]
    56 Div O.642 – To G SD 10 Corps. Conversation GII this HQ and G3 SD. Ten Solithurn [sic: ??] guns this Div all in 44 Recce Regt.

    Anyone heard about British use of these weapons before?

    Regards

    Tom
     
  17. Robert-w

    Robert-w Well-Known Member

    Yes I've seen photos of Solothurn mounted on Carriers etc in Sicily/Mainland Italy. The assumption usually being made that they were captured from the Germans and/or Italians in N Africa. If one is likely to mainly come up against enemy light armoured cars/recce vehicles seems appropriate
     
    Tom OBrien likes this.

Share This Page