295 Army Field Coy, Royal Engineers: "friendly fire" incident?

Discussion in 'Royal Engineers' started by GreenTree, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. GreenTree

    GreenTree Active Member

    I'm researching Frederick Alfred Woods. He was my father's cousin and they were inseparable in their teens until separated when the War started. I've traced a Frederick Alfred Woods 1906479 as being killed 14th Sep 1942 and his memorial is at Alamein. There is family history that his parents were more upset when told (after the War?) that his remains weren't found and his death was either an accident or 'friendly fire' incident, i.e. he didn't die in combat. His record shows that he died 'at sea' which seems odd as he was serving in Egypt. Does anyone know of any such incidents involving this company?
     
  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Hello Greentree

    could you possibly post anymore info or photos

    Based on the below he was possibly killed during the raid.

    Monday, 14 September 1942

    RAID ON TOBRUK - OPERATION AGREEMENT
    http://uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,86759

    WOODS, FREDERICK ALFRED Rank: Lance Serjeant Service No: 1906479 Date of Death: Between 14/09/1942 and 23/09/1942 Age: 23 Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers 295 Army Field Coy. Panel Reference Column 44. Memorial ALAMEIN MEMORIAL Additional Information:
    Son of Frederick Edward and Maud Frances Woods; husband of Marjorie Woods, of Devonport, Plymouth.


    if you check Geoffs Search Engine there are a number of 295 Army Field Coy casualties on 14/9/42 ,There are a number of RE casualties showing 14/9/42-23/9/42

    http://www.********.co.uk/cgi-bin/search39-47.php



    Also details of Royal Navy Losses
    http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1942-09SEP.htm


    regards
    Clive
     
    4jonboy likes this.
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hello and welcome to the forum - I think Clive may have solved your query ;)
     
  4. GreenTree

    GreenTree Active Member

    Many thanks Clive. I had just found some reference to Operation Arrangement this morning, but your link to a more detailed narrative convinces me that Freddie met his end in either one of the bombarded ships or landing craft. I found a book on Amazon called 'Massacre At Tobruk' by a Peter C. Smith so I've ordered it to read all the details.
    This explains why (i) Freddie's parents were told he was not found but was missing in action and (ii) details of the massive debacle were not published until much later, perhaps decades? So sad.

    My Dad and Freddie were so close and Dad often mentioned him even when he was in his eighties; he had a lot of happy memories of going camping together. They lived close to each other in Keyham, Devonport and were in Plymouth Dockyard together. They both applied to join the Army and Freddie 'won', because Dad had just started as a ropemaker's apprentice, a reserved occupation, and told he had to stay in the Dockyard Ropery (until it was bombed in the Plymouth blitz and he was sent to Chatham). I wouldn't be here now if things had been the other way round.
     
  5. GreenTree

    GreenTree Active Member

    I wonder why his death was stated as 'between' 14th Sep and 23rd Sep? Perhaps the 23rd was just the 'official end' of the operation.
     
  6. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    hi, GreenTree
    Didn't your previous post http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/48881-looks-like-a-great-place-to-find-help/ already give you this same information on Operation AGREEMENT? That's why he's shown as Lost at Sea and why the date range is so wide.

    Although likely that he drowned during the landing attempts, it wouldn't be until all the units reached base that a Roll Call of survivors could be made, as they were scattered throughout the various vessels that struggled back or until there were known to be PoW's.

    "Massive debacle" is a tad harsh as had it succeeded it would have been hailed a brilliant success. It was daring and could have been devastating to the build up of Rommels attacks, disrupting his supplies and perhaps allowing the Afrika Corps to have been beaten far sooner than it actually took. So, don't think his life was "wasted". That would do him and his mates a great injustice. Like most things in war, the balance between a glorious victory or ignominious defeat can be judged by a few little pieces of chance.

    Unless there was an eye witness, I can't see how his death would be described as a "friendly fire" one, there was a lot of metal flying in all directions, boats were being sunk, survivors getting rescued, then that vessel sunk. Lots of confusion and how a specific death can be singled out would be unlikely.

    So remember him as a brave man who went into battle knowing the huge odds against success but still went to do his bit.
     
  7. GreenTree

    GreenTree Active Member

    Hi Kevin, many thanks again for your help. I didn't know you'd replied to my other 'intro' thread. I haven't figured out yet how to get email notifications of replies/postings.

    No, it wasn't friendly fire, of course. The verbal, blurred, family story included a number of words and phrases, including these, that conveyed the mystery, conjecture and uncertainty which Freddie's parents had to endure for a long time. In fact until they died in 1964 and 1977.
     
  8. RemeDesertRat

    RemeDesertRat Very Senior Member

    Just to confirm 295 RE were at Tobruk during op Agreement, from National Archives, WO 201-749, (thanks Drew): [sharedmedia=gallery:images:23542]
     
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  9. RemeDesertRat

    RemeDesertRat Very Senior Member

    P.S. 'Massacre At Tobruk' by a Peter C. Smith - Excellent book, have you recieved it yet?
     
  10. GreenTree

    GreenTree Active Member

    Hi RemeDesertRat,
    Thanks, yes I received it the other day and halfway through it. Desperate and sad stuff. It seems there were many ingredients to the failure, not least Churchill's visit to Cairo to 'gee up' the brass, although he had every right to expect those he galvanised would act competently. "We must do something. This is something. We'll do this".
     
  11. RemeDesertRat

    RemeDesertRat Very Senior Member

    Another book dealing with this raid is Tobruk commando by Gordon Landsborough, on page 24 he states: George Harrison was an R.E. Lieutenant, with him were eight sappers.
     
  12. GreenTree

    GreenTree Active Member

    Wow thanks! I'll check that one out.
     
  13. RemeDesertRat

    RemeDesertRat Very Senior Member

    There is a photo of 11 engineers taking part in Op. AGREEMENT at Hatiet Etla on page 144 of David Jeffersons book Tobruk a raid too far.
    Cant scan and post just now, my scanners on the blink.
     
  14. GreenTree

    GreenTree Active Member

    I'm wondering at what juncture the general public would have been made aware of the disaster of Operation Agreement in September 1942? I have the two books referred to above and neither deal with this and the timing of release of further papers. It's just that I recall that Freddie's parents (my first cousin once removed) were never made aware of the details of their son's death, i.e. in a wooden landing craft under heavy fire from the air and Tobruk shore batteries.
     
  15. RemeDesertRat

    RemeDesertRat Very Senior Member

    It was kept hush-hush at the time, and reported on very little after the war. Because it was such a disaster it was seldom spoken of. As you will be aware even today it is not well known about. I doubt if NOK would have been informed of anything but the bare details at the time of his death.
     

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