27th Bn Royal Marines 1945

Hi,

My first post on this site.

My Grandfather ('Pop' Ansell) was Carrier Pl Sgt with HQ 116 Bde at war's end, and I too have been trying to piece together any kind of jigsaw document of his wartime experiences, so these pages about the constituent Battalions of that brigade have been helpful.

For what it is worth, the only published book I have found that makes any kind of mention of the Bde is this one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sea-Land-Authorised-History-Marines/dp/000472366X

. . . and it is very brief (from memory, no more than a page, perhaps two)

From it I learned that the Bde - which as most you will perhaps know already was formed with an altogether different role in mind - was ultimately assigned to 1st Canadian Army*, as part of what is known as "Army Troops", which meant a it was not fixed into a specific Division, but was an independent infantry brigade, and a resource that the Army commander could flex as the need arose.

It was also disbanded very soon after hostilities ended (as evidence of which I've a letter written by 'Pop' to my grandma, in pencil, on German navy HQ headed notepaper, from his billet at that former HQ in Buxtehude, shortly after VE day)

The above seems to explain the difficulty of nailing down the unit and formation histories of the Bde and its constituent Bns.

SInce they were all under Canadian command, they would fall outside the writing of Brit operational history. Not being Canadian, nor being part of a Canadian division (unless temporarily plugged into one for specific tasking, either as a complete Bde, or in a rent-a-battalion role) they might only feature briefly - if at all - as the odd vignette within the odd Canadian-centric historic narrative , if you could find one.

On top of all that, since the battalions and the Bde were hostilities-only entities, but not linked to the extremely well documented Commando role (in which between 1940 - 45 the RM were minority shareholders, the vast bulk of green berets being worn by volunteers from the Army), come war's end, there doesn't appear to have been any writing up and publishing of personal experiences, and I suspect (without really knowing) that any unit or formation war diaries that still exist will be found in Canadian archives, not British ones.

Oh well. We live in hopes.

* I seem to recall reading somewhere, some-when that about 50% of 1st Canadian Army was made up of Brits, but I wouldn't swear to that as a fact.

 

Have you seen/read the War Diary?

Tim
Edit: Sorry just noticed link to War Diary has already been posted.

 

In a word - No

But it is good to know that it (and those of the other Bns in the Bde) is in UK - even if inaccessible while we're all socially distancing :-(

One lives in hope that some day soon it/they will be digitised, and made more readily available.

For what it is worth, in the last half hour I've been sifting CWGC records of RM deaths between 1 Sep 1944 and 1 June 1945 (before 116 Bde entered Europe, to after VE Day), wondering if burial locations might shed some light on which unit was engaged where and when, but while it didn't really help very much with that particular question, it's worth noting that the numbers of dead listed against the 3 bns of 116 Bde are quite low: not one in double-figures, which was a bit of a surprise.

 

For future reference there are Forum members who copy Kew files (obviously not at the moment).
Anyone require War Diaries or other files from the National Archives?

Tim

 

Many thanks - I will look at that.

 

Would be interested in the movements post VE for 27th Battalion and others, as there are listed as being in Oldenburg up to Mar 46, have the following taken from Kew documents for higher formations:

Headquarters 116th Infantry Brigade Royal Marines command 12th Corps
Brigade Headquarters: Estetal (Marine) Kaserne later Spey Barracks Buxtehude, Landkreis Stade
2 Jun 45 – 2nd Army Troops with 30th Corps District for administration
16 Jun 45 – advance party 111 Transit Camp Ostend-B
19 Jun 45 – United Kingdom
27 Jun 45 – main party United Kingdom

27th Infantry Battalion Royal Marines command 1st Canadian Army
Battalion Headquarters: Bad Zwischenahn, Landkreis Ammerland
Stadtkreis Wilhelmshaven – probably only company
17 Jun 45 – relieved by 31st Anti-Aircraft Brigade

From Canadian WDs available on line
18 Jun 45 – Ofener Straße, Stadtkreis Oldenburg – 2nd Canadian Infantry Division
9 Jul 45 – 3rd Canadian Infantry Division (CAOF)
date of returning to the United Kingdom unknown – last listed 30 Mar 46

21st Army Group later British Army of the Rhine (under construction)

 

I just now followed a link tucked away in the references at the foot of the very short Wikipedia page for 116th Infantry Brigade, and got myself a copy of Naval Review Vol XXXIII No 3 August 1945, which opens with an 11-page piece entitled Review Of Royal Marine Operations 1939-45, from which I have lifted the few paragraphs below, because they contain the only references therein to 116th Bde, or any of its constituent Bns.

EXTRACT FROM REVIEW OF ROYAL MARINE OPERATIONS 1939-45, by DUILIUS
PUBLISHED IN THE NAVAL REVIEW Vol XXXIII No 3 August 1945

CROSSING THE RHINE.
When at last 21st Army Group launched its decisive offensive to force the crossing of the Rhine on the 23rd of March, Royal Marines of Nos. 45 and 46 Commandos, serving with the 1st Commando Brigade, were in the spearhead. The first unit across at Wesel was No. 46 R.M. Commando, and general opinion awards to Captain Barry Pierce, R.M., of that unit, the honour of being the first man to land on the eastern bank (Captain Pierce was, unhappily, killed in subsequent fighting on the Aller). After the Wesel crossing 1st Commando Brigade with its Marine components cleared the town of Osnabruck and went forward to force crossings of the Weser, the Aller and finally the Elbe.

The last stages of the war in the West saw the reappearance of two Royal Marine infantry brigades. These were the product of a remarkable quick-change act. As already related, many of the soldiers of the Royal Marine Division and the M.N.B.D.O.s were turned into landing craft crews in the autumn of 1943 to meet the heavy demands on the, Royal Navy for the invasion. The closing months of 1944 found the Army feeling the pinch of man-power shortage, whereupon the 116th and 117th R.M. Infantry Brigades were formed, drawing a substantial part of their personnel from these same landing-craft crews, who turned back into soldiers with even greater expedition than they had taken to the sea. Again the policy of basic infantry training proved its value.

THE GREAT SURRENDER
The 116th R.M. Brigade arrived in time to play a part in the holding action on the lower Maas that was the hinge upon which turned the swift envelopment of the Dutch and North German ports by the 1st Canadian and 2nd British Armies. The 27th Battalion from this Brigade fought with the 4th Canadian Armoured Division in their advance through Oldenburg towards Wilhelmshaven. When the collapse came the 117th Brigade was called forward hastily, its 33rd Battalion being flown forward from Belgium to take part in the occupation of Kiel. These R.M. formations were rushed into the German naval ports, Kiel, Wilhelmshaven, Emden, Brunsbuttel and later Cuxhaven, to deal with the crews of U-boats and destroyers coming in to surrender, often in a recalcitrant frame of mind, and also with the thousands of troops who poured in by ship. In Kiel in one hectic night 21 destroyers were taken over and 14,000 soldiers removed from shipping in the harbour by the Marines.
​

 

I also took the time to prod and poke at the TNA website - and cofirmed that the war diaries of HQ 116th Bde and its constituent Bns are indeed safe in their hands, and available for perusal once we cease social distancing. So - thanks again.

 

Heusden is not far from where i live. I live in Kerkdriel also on the river Maas. The 30RM fought in Kerkdriel on the 23th of April 1945

 

Do you know the names of the persons on this photograph? Or maybe some of the names?

 

Dear Mr. Watman,
There is someone in the Netherlands, city Hengelo , looking for someone called Paddy W.Neill, member of the 27th bn Royal Marines. He was from Belfast. Can you help them. Thanks

 

Hello all,

My great grandfather, SN PO/X2518, James George Forbes-Stewart was apart of this unit from january to july 1945, however, i can't find any details anywhere about his service or what he did from january onwards. He kept most of his records pertaining to before this point, his RM commando training in '42, Posting on various ships, his combat theatres etc.

I reenact a portrayal of him in 116/27th, but unsure if he would've worn a Green Beret with Royal Marine Commandos Shoulder flashes, or, a navy blue one with just Royal Marine ones.

If anyone can help, i'd be much appreciated.

 

My Grandfather served in 116th Bde, as carrier troop Sjt for the Bde HQ. His personal documentation shows he fought through Europe from Sept 1944 to VE Day, in Buxtehude (SW of Bremen, from memory). He wore a navy blue beret throughout, with RM Cap Badge and red backing patch. I reckon that would have been standard headdress for the rest of the Bde.

That said, it is just conceivable that your Gt Grandad, if he had successfully completed Commando training, might have been permitted to retain the green beret, but (while I stand to be corrected on this matter) I think it unlikely.

I wonder - is it possible that you may have misinterpreted his training record, and assumed that because he was trained as a Royal Marine, he must have been a Commando?

116 Bde was not (AIUI) a Commando formation, which is partly why I doubt he'd have been permitted to sport Commando headdress whilst in a line infantry role, but it also has me wondering why a trained Commando would have been among its ranks in the first place.

See my earlier post on this thread re. RM units being latecomers to the Commando role in WW2. The vast bulk of WW2 Commandos belonged to the Army, and the vast majority of WW2 Royal Marines were employed in other roles than Commando, usually working in their traditional environments, either afloat, or in the coastal littoral. The Royal Marines did not inherit the commando role lock-stock-and-barrel until post WW2.

 

Hello and thank you for the reply.
It's quite possible i've mistaken the training that he mentioned, my grandparents no longer have his berets but we do have his diary that mentions "special training" in the 42/43 period. My battle dress tunic is badged as RM Commandos with a green beret, so, should i change that to just say "Royal Marines" and get myself a Navy Blue beret and red backing?

Thank you.

 

You said you still have "most of his records" - by that, do you mean personal records, or his actual Service Record (I have my Grandad's, which he brought home with him on discharge). If you have the latter, it would be worth your while to scan and post it here.

I know from my old boy's service records that volunteered in Aug 1942, aged 33, father of 7, and spent all bar the latter part of his service in UK, and time, dates, places of training, and qualifications gained (as well as his injury from having a Bren Carrier overturn with him in it) are catalogued. I'd bet that the Royal Navy Records office would have a duplicate, likewise for your Gt Grandad, and there are procedures in place for family to request a copy (Google is you friend in such matters)

In the meantime, I think you'd be wise to adjust your uniform as you say - Royal Marines shoulder flashes, navy blue beret/red patch.

We (my li'l bro' was Royal Marine in the '80s-'90s) have a Combined Operations badge that was in Pop's collection, but I have no idea whether he would ever have sewed that on as part of his uniform. It would have been spot-on had 116 Bde been employed in the task originally envisaged, managing beachhead activities, but I can't see it fitting the line infantry role they actually carried out.

FWIW, Pop's docs tell me he entered Europe [deleted] via the Normandy beaches (MULBERRY harbour, I guess) in the days immediately after MARKET GARDEN was over (mid/late Sep '44). I'd expect your man's dates to be about the same, [final line deleted, in light of my later post #61 below]

At some stage, I'm going to download from CWGC all the casualties from the Bde's constituent Battalions (and, hopefully I'll find some of Bde HQ), and use their burial locations to help me approximate their journey. from Holland to North Germany. You might want to do something similar.

[DELETED WORDS: "given that 116 Bde was part of Army Troops for the Canadian Army, and the constituent Bns would only be rolled into Theatre as a coherent formation, under their Bde HQ"]

 

Hello,
We have the latter, that being military documents, but i'd need to visit my grand parents to grab some photos. His personal documents state "special training", but as far as i'm aware it isn't anywhere in the Army ones.

for the early part of the war, from 1937-1944 he was stationed on different ships - namely, Argus, Penelope, Abercrombie then Aurora (please see attached photo), then, was transferred to 116/27th, would have to try and find where he mentioned his training at some stage.

I've got the Combined Operations patches sewn on, so would have to look more into that, however i'll change the RMC green beret and shoulder titles to the correct ones as soon as i get paid. I also managed to put together a NO.1s Blues parade dress to represent that era and him too.

 

He wasn't in the Army, my friend

His Majesty's Corps of Royal Marines are, and always have been, a prized Admiralty asset - they are members of the Royal Navy, and (trust me) they won't let you forget it !!

 

Sorry, yes, Royal Navy documents*. forgot about that fact

 

I wonder what his shipboard role was, on those various vessels (whose individual histories you should explore, IMHO).

pre-WW2 RM were either/or RM Artillery or RM Light Infantry, but as technology evolved, that distinction was abandoned, and their skillsets diversified, and its not a subject I really know much about, but if you can share here, images of whatever documentation your family has, I expect that there's members here who can extract all there is to know from them.

 

Ragnarsdestiny

Oooh - a clue, I think, from your notes - Gunner of some sort:

I read that as:

Action Station;

Shell Room​

Repel-A-Station

4th Gun​

Aboard HMS Penelope (?) but with zero knowledge of the vessel, or of Naval/RM terminology I'm lost beyond that glimpse of the bl##din' obvious !