2697455 James SKELLY, 2 Scots Guards

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by Calvin Carson, Nov 24, 2017.

  1. Calvin Carson

    Calvin Carson Member

    Hi I just got my great uncle James service record. However, he seems to have been transferred from Egypt sometime after the Battle of El Alamein and transferred to Syria. In the date box it just says NVK.
    Anyone know what this means?

    Casualty
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2019
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Hi Calvin

    Can you scan the page and upload it please, as often happens with these seeing the actual document helps solve the problem, for example what you read as NVK may be seen by someone else as different

    Thanks
    TD
     
  3. Calvin Carson

    Calvin Carson Member

    Please see attached
     

    Attached Files:

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  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Still not sure but would guess at :

    Not V? Known

    Its possible - Not Yet Known - is it possible the V is actually a Y??

    It seems to me that whoever wrote the 3 dates after NVK (or NYK) was all done in the same hand, and they might not have had the information at the time

    Maybe others will find other possibilities

    TD
     
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  5. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    IMHO it’s a poorly photocopied N Y K. Ever seen N V K written in a service file previously.

    Steve
     
  6. Calvin Carson

    Calvin Carson Member

    Yeah unfortunately that's how is how I got it. the V maybe should be Y for Not Yet Known makes sense though.
    Maybe I can email them for clarification. Another document has half the line cut off. So I think I can ask them to maybe photo and email it.
     
  7. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Perhaps if you post the name of the unit he was serving with in Egypt and if he transferred with that unit to Syria a member may have the unit War diary and be able to provide a date of its movement.

    Are there no more details/clues on his B103 forms?

    Obviously if he was evacuated sick/injured it may be more difficult to pin down a date but he may be on a casualty list if injured.

    Steve
     
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  8. Calvin Carson

    Calvin Carson Member

    Yeah he was evacuated as sick for a period during this time which is maybe why this is.
    He was in 2nd Battalion Scots Guards.
     
  9. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    201st Guards Brigade (3rd CG, 2nd CG & 6th GG) left Egypt for Syria 15th Sept 1942 per Howard & Sparrow CG Regimental History and arrived at Medenine, Tunisia 27th February 1943 after a journey by land of “almost 4 weeks” which ties in with the record saying your man departed Syria 8th Feb 1943.

    Is the significance of his departure from his unit 6th March 1943 that he was wounded in the German attack on Scots Guards 6th March 1943?

    He appears to have been a replacement sent to 2nd SG in Syria arriving via a Red Sea port 26th Oct 1942 whence he would've travelled to join 2nd SG in Syria - arriving a few days later.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
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  10. Calvin Carson

    Calvin Carson Member

    I think you are getting the dates mixed. He set off for Egypt 15th sept and arrived on the 26 Sept. Scots were involved in El Alamein. From his medical notes, he arrived in Durban 4/12/42 on the Empress of Scotland. I found the shipping log for that which left on 19/11/42 from Bahia Egypt. So it seems that he left Egypt for medical reasons and re-joined his unit in Syria.
    He was killed at the Battle of Medenine on the 6th March 1943.
     
  11. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Splitting your post into separate points for ease of reply -

    1. I think you are getting the dates mixed.

    Reply 1. I'm interpreting the only record you've posted which shows home service from 1940 until 26th Oct 1942 with arrival in Egypt same date with departure date from Egypt to Syria not shown.

    2. He set off for Egypt 15th Sept and arrived on the 26 Sept.

    Reply 2. Set off from where? If you have documentary proof of that please post. It isn't borne out by the document you posted.

    3. Scots were involved in El Alamein.

    Reply 3. I presume you mean 2nd Scots Guards where at 2nd Battle of Alamein Oct/Nov 1942? If so incorrect. They weren't there. 2nd Scots Guards suffered heavily June 1942 at Rigel Ridge and were withdrawn forming composite unit with equally under strength 3rd CG July 1942 before complete withdrawal to refit in Cairo thence to Syria.

    4.From his medical notes, he arrived in Durban 4/12/42 on the Empress of Scotland

    I found the shipping log for that which left on 19/11/42 from Bahia Egypt.

    Reply 4. Don't doubt that. Are you talking about a line on a B103? Does it give detail of medical evacuation from front line. - date of injury etc?

    5. So it seems that he left Egypt for medical reasons and re-joined his unit in Syria.

    Reply 5. Isn't borne out by the document you've posted.

    6. He was killed at the Battle of Medenine on the 6th March 1943.

    Reply 6. One of many 2nd SG casualties that day

    Regards

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
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  12. Calvin Carson

    Calvin Carson Member

    Thanks for trying to help. I haven't got to researching why they were in Syria yet, I assumed they were sent to Egypt for El Alemain but I have not read that. If they were understrength makes sense then that he brought in from London. So you information about them being understrength etc seems a good place for me to start understanding why they were in Syria. Thanks for the tip
     
  13. Calvin Carson

    Calvin Carson Member

    Here is the medical form.
    The port of Embarkation is not readable and looks like Gouwek but this does not exist and not really an African sounding name even.
    from the attached is the war voyages for the Empress of Scotland. Which shows that the ship sailed from Bahia to Durban (where Springfield military hospital is)
    I cant read why he was sick.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Something is a bit screwy here

    The Empress of Scotland arrived at Durban on 4th Dec 1942 but she had arrived there from Liverpool - Clyde, Oct 31, 1942 WS.24 (Liverpool - Bahia) Durban, Dec 4, 1942
    Arnold Hague Ports database

    Bahia is a port in Argentina, so I presume she left the Clyde, called at Liverpool, made Bahia then arrived Durban.
    Now according to Convoyweb at Bahia no ships arrived or departed 19th Nov 1942 +/- 5 days - Arnold Hague Ports database

    The above is borne out by your excel file:
    Glasgow 29/10/42 Bahia 15/11/42 5595 "
    Bahia 19/11/42 Durban 4/12/42 4362 "
    Durban 9/12/42 New York 29/12/42 9535 "
    New York 8/1/43 Glasgow 13/1/43 3477 "


    According to the story above she travelled from Egypt carrying wounded down the east coast of Africa to Durban

    TD
     
  15. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

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  16. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    How is he admitted to a hospital in Durban on the 10th Dec and yet he is due for embarkation on the 4th Dec 1942 ??

    TD
     
  17. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Calvin,

    Thanks for attaching the medical admission form. You are very lucky to have received that from RHQ SG as MOD don’t release any medical information.

    Things look a bit clearer to me now as it is an admission form for Springfield Military Hospital in South Africa - see below link - some of which contradicts what I said earlier.

    History of King George V Hospital

    My interpretation of the document is that he sailed from Gourock - a port of the west coast of Scotland 26th October 1942 on one of the Winston special convoys en route to Egypt which docked in South Africa 4th December 1942. They often sailed out into the Atlantic as far as Bahia in Brazil to avoid U boats.

    Convoys routinely stopped for 5 to 7 days in South Africa and your great uncle was evacuated sick from a Transit Camp (1 F T. C Clairwood) o Springfield Mikitary Hospital suffering from “enteritis” on 10th December 1942.

    The admission form doesn’t give a date for his discharge so I can’t give you a definite date for his arrival in Syria so the form you posted earlier is inaccurate and all it confirms is his home service 1940/42 and departure from UK 26th Oct 1942 and arrival in Egypt/Syria on an unknown date (likely early Jan 1943) and departure from Syria 7th Feb 1943 for the 2,000 mile road trip to Tunisia.

    If I could suggest that if you need anymore help it may assist forum members if you scan all the documents that you’ve received from RHQ SG because as you can see the 2 forms you’ve posted contradict each other in part and it needs a bit of knowledge to interpret them and identify the inconsistencies.

    Good Luck in your search.

    Steve

    PS Thanks to Diane & TD for their posts while I was researching and composing my response.
     
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  18. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    According to the Medical form he disembarked on 4/12/1942, was then admitted on the 10/12/1942.
     
  19. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    :omg: - should have gone to spec...ers :blush::salut:

    TD
     
  20. Calvin Carson

    Calvin Carson Member

    Tricky I think I may have thrown things as I assumed he fought in Egypt and got sick so was transferred down to the hospital
    Gourock ...brilliant that is by Glasgow
    Glasgow 29/10/42 Bahia 15/11/42
    Bahia 19/11/42 Durban 4/12/42
    So to it seems he set off from Glasgow via Bahia to Durban where he got sick with Enteritis (brilliant interpreting that thank you)
    Admitted to hospital and then maybe Egypt or maybe he went straight to Syria then the 2000 mile journey down to Tunisia where he got KIA at Medenine.
    With the service record they included a photo copy from a book of an account of Medenine so I am certain that is where he died.
    Seems highly like as the Scots only suffered a low casualty count that he was in carrier patrol.
    Thanks for all the great help.
     

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