24th Lancers - Tessel Wood (c25th June 1944)

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Ramiles, Apr 1, 2015.

  1. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    A rather basic stitch of 8 photos

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  2. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    M Kenny

    That's brilliant! Just as a matter of interest, do you have the areas just to the east of there and to the north (therefore including Fontenay Le Pesnel). This means ( the North ) that it would include the locations of the IWM photos you have posted. That area has been completely redeveloped but I'm hoping that it might be possible to locate the precise position of the IWM photos by reference to the recon images.

    Apart from the obvious shell craters, it's amazing how many vehicle (tank? ) tracks can be made out on the recon images....and that was, I believe, before the main attack on the 26th?
     
  3. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Fontenay

    [​IMG]
     
  4. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    With the bloom on the right removed

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  5. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Been done in the Heimdal book 'La Bataille De L'Odon'.

    Red = Sherman
    Yellow = Panther
    Green = AT Gun


    [​IMG]
     
  6. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    M kenny

    Some nice views there of the Parc de Boislonde (top right of the Fontenay image).

    I had been looking in the wrong place for the Sherman and Panther!

    Many thanks for posting these images.

    Steve.
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Yes,

    Thanks for that "m kenny", I managed to track down some descriptions for those pics but the one's I saw weren't too informative, so does anyone out there know anything more about the Sherman (3rd pic down in "m kenny's" post #19? above) in the Parc de Boislonde (the 24th seemed to regularly park up there) i.e. what it's regiment, squadron, troop, tank # and commander / crew were? But perhaps this is lost in the mists of time? I saw similar photos like that taken of the SRY so I might assume otherwise it to be one of theirs? It looks like the chap in pic # 5 was one of the German crew of the 75mm gun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Epsom (about 40% down the page).

    It's pretty much a "full-on" shot of the Sherman so I would have hoped to see something in the way of markings there, or better yet in the 4th pic down in post #19 on the Shermna's side, but can't really pick anything out, except maybe the slight hint of a TR (which might be just scratches or twigs!) on the front.

    Thanks Rm.
     
  8. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Ramiles

    That Sherman tank was totally brewed (look at the colour and the tracks where the rubber has completely burned away) and in fact it's still smouldering from the drivers hatch. Not sure of the source and no way of checking but I seem to remember it's ex SRY.
     
  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  10. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Stowage varied by regiment. The skirts welded to the rear should be enough to identify the Unit.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks!

    I had a quick look for the Heimdal book 'La Bataille de L'Odon' (in French) - (note from "m kenny"): http://www.abebooks....l/1678386764/bd

    Looks like an interesting read. Is it from a German/French & British perspective? From the author Georges Bernage and the language of the print I'd assume it might be from a local guide or historian? so is it particularly detailed or offering something even more worthy of additional note? I've seen some relatively high prices for it quoted but this could be for all sort of reasons including low print run or the need to import it to the UK from a store in France.

    Also does it make make much mention of the tank vs. tank battles there??

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  12. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    The Heimdal books are 'The' best books on Normandy by far. They no longer do them in English/French which is a shame. The earlier Normandy Album sets (very thick books) have by far the best photo coverage of the campaign than any books I have ever seen. There really is no comparison with anything else. The Normandy Album books are the ones that command high prices and the Odon one is a current title in France and is fairly cheap-around 16 quid. Do not be fooled by dealers saying they are hard to get.
    Heimdal have gone down the road of including model shots/scenarios in their new books that match the period photos. Not something I agree with but it appears to be keeping the prices low so I will bite my lip!
    There are lots of 'then & now' shots and the books are often trailed as articles in their excellent monthly ATB style magazines. In short a Frenchman is much better supplied with Normandy information than anything we have in the UK.
     
    Albowie and Ramiles like this.
  13. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    George's Bernage (Heimdal) are, or at least were, based just outside Bayeux when I visited them a few years ago. They have an amazing amount of information still to publish. I believe their books are priced to reflect the cost of relatively small print runs and the not inconsiderable cost of photo royalties. All of their books are very photo heavy. From a consumers point of view you get what you pay for....and if you want amazing detail.......
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  14. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks all,

    I'm shifting focus a little at the mo. towards the stages of the Defence of Rauray and:


    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28191]



    The photo on map was a bit harder again to align this time, not least because the big village in the centre threw me a bit because I first thought it was Rauray - actually it seems to be Le Manoir. Rauray's not really "too" much on the aerial map. Unfortunately most of the action would shift to below that now as the German tanks seemed to be packed up in the territory just to the south of that.

    At some point I should be able to fix the positions of the 24L squads but I've put them on roughly for now. I not sure if they were mobile and shifted around much but as I understand it they were pretty much bedded down on this one waiting for the Germans to come on, not racing about looking for them for a change :) .

    I'll shift to... WW2Talk
    momentarily now:

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
  15. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Ramiles

    You might find the book Hill 112 by Major How useful. It has general maps of the Rauray battle and not forgetting Kevin Baverstocks book and None Had Lances. Put that lot together with the War Diaries and the Heimdal books and that's about as difinitive as it can get......plus M Kenny incredible photo input..........and......
     
  16. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    I posted this link in another thread somewhere but I do not think anyone noticed

    http://geocalvados.calvados.fr/wvsInternet/resources/index.html

    Quite simply it is the most amazing interactive zoomable map of the whole of Normandy that can switch from the current IGN 1:25000 Serie Bleau maps to 3 colour air views from c 2000. The big bonus is the 1947 air view of Normandy is also on the site. You can zoom in to any area and the post war buldings stand out so you can discount them.
    The icons on the top right change the views and the one on the bottom row is the 1947 view. Use the sliders to fade in and out on overlays.
     
  17. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    M Kenny

    I saw it and it's brilliant. Interesting differences between the recon images, the 1947 and now.
     
  18. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake The Mayor of London's latest dress code

    The Hiemdal books are good, but these statements need to be qualified. They really do benefit from the local; knowledge and photographs.

    However, they are often un sourced or referenced and can be unreliable when the information is in The national Archives in Kew. . For example the map on P 182-3 of "Gold, Juno Sword" beach shows the Mont Fleury Battery attacked by a flanking move from the NW, very much at odds with the WD and accounts by Robin Hasting and Stan Hollis VC who are mentioned in the text. This is not an isolated example. the map showing the Allied advance from Gold Beach on P60 of "The D Day Landing beaches" includes an imaginary "!24 Regiment" which might or might not be the 124 Field Regiment RA which landed a week after D Day. The books could have benefited with proofimg the ihe denizens of this forum
     
  19. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY


    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28184]

    So any idea on the placement of the supporting and/or opposing (i.e. German) artillery for the engagements in and around the Tessel Woods on particularly the 25th June 1944 and/or the 26th? Would they even fit in my little map above, or are they more likely to be placed at a distance "off map" (on this one?) - I've been trying to "scope" out a potential series of pin-pointed events, but of course with the albeit limited info I have on this one they are quite necessarily vague. I suspect noted or recognised tank wrecks might be able to "tie down" specific engagements for here, and additionally there are some post battle pictures and films of the area dotted around that might start to be of some help if people know where to look for any "evidence" that might be out there. Even knowing where the actual "front" lines were might start to establish the lines of control - beyond which actions were less likely to "spread" - using the map of Operation 'Epsom' from page 336, 'The Struggle for Europe' by Chester Wilmot for instance seems to put the front line around the 25th-26th June in a diagonal line roughly through Rauray heading from about 20% south of west to about 20% north of east (with a bulge around Vendes for example in allied hands since the evening of the 25th - it's a nice map as it shows the aliies pushing into a bigger bulge between Vendes and Cheux - (with Rauray at the sharp end in the centre a big point of contention there) and overall helps put things into great perspective there. (I'll try to update the little map above at some point soon with this "frontline/line of control" detail to "better" explain what I mean ;) )

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
  20. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake The Mayor of London's latest dress code

    You will have to wait until I draw the map for the Epson chapter of Gunners in Normandy.
     

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