24th Lancers - "B" Squadron

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Ramiles, Mar 18, 2018.

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  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    In a similar vein to the thread: 24th Lancers - "C" Squadron

    I've also been collecting some info. on "B" Squadron of the 24th Lancers, as some ref's had the two complete troops that went from the 24th Lancers (when they were disbanded at the end of July 1944) going from the "B" squadron of the 24th L to the SRY, and I was following them as that was the group that my gd. was in. Nb. I am not 100% sure, as due to losses there was apparently some reorganisation and transfers between squadrons perhaps but I think at the mo. that actually of the two troops that went from the 24th L to the SRY one perhaps (Lt.Cameron's) went from "C" squadron of the 24th L, while the other Lt.Cowan's went from "B" squadron of the 24th L. Either way both 24th L troops apparently went into "B" squadron of the SRY.

    There are quite a few people that have posted about the 24th L's "B" squadron, with questions, pictures and details etc. so hopefully I'll be able to help summarize some info and perhaps look here for some further leads on "B" squadron of the 24th L.

    Nb.... This (below) is just some rough data that will need editing / adjusting

    Squadron Leaders...

    Michael Fitzhugh (note p44 NHL)
    Bennett, Roy - wounded p154 NHL
    Ian Kerr took over B sqd (p154 NHL) but was KIA 26d6m1944
    Robert Arbuthnot - took over B sqd but was KIA 30d6m1944
    Following the death of Robert Arbuthnot - Major.J.W.Harman, MC, the Bays, joined the Regiment and assumed command of ‘B' Sqn.

    Captains (at various times - details to edit etc)


    Foy.J
    Frewin, Basil
    Kerr, Ian (Jock): KIA 26d6m1944
    Wills, A.C. (Toby)

    Lieutenants (at various times - details to edit etc)

    Cowan, Harry (Transferred to the SRY when the 24th L were disbanded)
    Fuller, Frank W. : KIA 5d4m1945
    Gordon,K.
    Leathers, Richard (Bunny) : WIA 12d6m1944
    Northern, P.H.
    Webb, Edward Arthur Alexander: KIA 11d6m1944
    Williams, P.(Pip) P.

    Sergeants (at various times - details to edit etc)

    Coles, N.J.
    Cornwall, Frederick J. : KIA 24d9m1944
    Cruden (picture in NHL p34)
    Farmer
    Fielder, Frederick (Freddie) James W: KIA 11d6m1944
    Hyde, "Tiny" B.J. : (Trooper, Cpl, A/Sgt at 24th L disbandment) - NHLp78&160
    Norton, Sidney: KIA 17d6m1944
    Patrick, Christopher T. : KIA 1d5m1945
    Shelton, R. SSM
    Sirrell, S.

    Corporals (at various times - details to edit etc)


    Axtell, G. : KIA 5d4m1945
    Bunt W. (Bill) C. : Corporal later A/Sgt
    Carmoodie, A.D. (NHL p99)
    Cornish, Keith Arthur: (Transferred to the SRY when the 24th L were disbanded) KIA 19d11m1944
    Mintoff, Thomas Wilson: KIA 12d6m1944 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2218984/MINTOFT, THOMAS WILSON
    Gillman, Wilfred John : KIA 8d6m1944 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2627470/GILLMAN, WILFRED JOHN
    Griffiths, Alun.G.B. (L/Cpl) :
    Hodge, Edward W. : KIA 24d9m1944
    Turvey, Henry John - KIA 26d6m1944 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2341614/TURVEY, HENRY JOHN
    Willson, Ronald
    Wilson, Harold D. : KIA 21d8m1944
    Unknown - Ernest Payn's Tank commander - Buq Buq???

    Troopers...
    e.g. (as an example of some info. I may have to think again perhaps about the best way to arrange this list - as nb. a number of troopers listed here later rose in rank - either in the 24th L or subsequent regiments, and it's not trivial ;-) to track this currently etc.

    Beasley, Jack: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/05/-sp-d-day-memories-from-the-front-line
    Blaxall, Wallace (Wally) Henry: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2806432/BLAXALL, WALLACE HENRY
    Bolden, Leonard (Len): WIA - 17/6/1944
    Booker, J: Trooper, Transferred to SRY4/8/1944
    Brown, Joseph (Topper) William: KIA 12/06/1944: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2218536/BROWN, JOSEPH WILLIAM

    Clarke, Leslie James
    Cropper, John (A/Cpl at 24th L disbandment) : Subject of the book "Dad's War" -

    Dansie, L.G.
    Divers, Alan

    Etteridge, William (Bill) - Ref - 24th Lancers

    Guest, Leonard J. : KIA 16d8m1944

    Hearnah, Sydney, Percival : KIA 8d6m1944

    Hyde, "Tiny" B.J. : (A/Sgt at 24th L disbandment) NHLp78&160

    Jones, Rhys :

    Lines, Leslie A. : KIA 4d1m1945 - Went from 24th L to 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry

    MacDonald J. A. : Possibly B or C sqd. 24th L. Not currently sure which. Ref. in Cropper's book "Dad's War" as going into "B" Squadron SRY 4d8m1944

    Marchant, Dick:
    Martin, Terry
    McFarlane, R.: Possibly B or C sqd. 24th L. Not currently sure which. Ref. in Cropper's book "Dad's War" as going into "B" Squadron SRY 4d8m1944

    Newton, Edward G:

    Ogg, John:
    Oxley, F. : WIA - 5d4m1945

    Paget, Thomas:
    Payne, Ernest:
    Pinfold, H. : Possibly B or C sqd. 24th L. Not currently sure which. Ref. in Cropper's book "Dad's War" as going into "B" Squadron SRY 4d8m1944
    Pound, Edward G. :

    Quinn, Ronald: KIA 17d6m1944 : http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2336724/QUINN, RONALD

    Randle, Harold (Henry?) George: KIA 12d9m1944 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2806683/RANDLE, HAROLD GEORGE
    Richardson, A. J. (or A.S.?) : WIA - 19d11m1944 - Possibly B or C sqd. 24th L. Not currently sure which. Ref. in Cropper's book "Dad's War" as going into "B" Squadron SRY 4d8m1944
    Riches, E. - http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/trooper-riches-sherwood-rangers-rip.127854/
    Robinson, D. S. : 24th Lancers
    Robinson, Norman: 12d6m1944 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2219136/ROBINSON, NORMAN
    Rose, A. : Pow - 12d9m1944 - Possibly B or C sqd. 24th L. Not currently sure which. Ref. in Cropper's book "Dad's War" as going into "B" Squadron SRY
    Rowland, Thomas Henry: 25d6m1944 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2328869/ROWLAND, THOMAS HENRY
    Ruffell, J.E. (or J V): Possibly B or C sqd. 24th L. Not currently sure which. Ref. in Cropper's book "Dad's War" as going into "B" Squadron SRY

    Stephens, Richard James: 12d6m1944 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2219208/STEPHENS, RICHARD JAMES
    Stevenson, James Frederick: 25d6m1944 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2341390/STEVENSON, JAMES FREDERICK

    Taylor, Reg:
    Thomas, Haydn (Harry?): KIA 12d9m1944: Possibly B or C sqd. 24th L. Not currently sure which. Ref. in Cropper's book "Dad's War" as going into "B" Squadron SRY - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2806748/THOMAS, HAYDN
    Tutin (Toots), T.H. : WIA - 19d11m1944 : Possibly B or C sqd. 24th L. Not currently sure which. Ref. in Cropper's book "Dad's War" as going into "B" Squadron SRY

    Venskunas, "Jo":

    Walker:
    Whittaker, Ronald George

    (Nb. Still "not a complete list", and edits will be required to add to etc.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Some "B" Squadron links, threads and posts etc....

    (To add in edit etc)

    e.g.

    Referencing places / events:

    le parc de bois londe (boislonde)

    The Battles for the Parc de Bois Londe (17th-18th June 1944)

    24th Lancers - Tessel Wood (c25th June 1944)

    Referencing Individuals:

    Re. Trooper Leslie James Clarke, 7927896 : 24 Lancers & After

    Re. Sgt. Frederick (Freddie) James W Fielder: KIA 11d6m1944: 24th Lancers

    Re. Trooper Syd Hearnah: KIA 8/6/44 B Squadron: 24th Lancers

    Re. 7941218 Trooper R. Jones posted on the 24th L's disbandment to 44th RTR : 24th Lancers Regimental Nominal Roll and Postings August 1944

    Re. Sgt. Sidney Norton: KIA 17d6m1944 : 24th lancers sgt Sidney Norton

    Re. Tpr D.S. Robinson ('B' Squadron) : 24th Lancers

    Books etc.

    None Had Lances : The Story of the 24th Lancers - Leonard Willis

    There a number of ref's to particular "B" squadron 24th Lancers in Patrick Delaforce's "Monty's Marauders" :Monty’s Marauders
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
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  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Some "B" Squadron events...

    (To add in edit etc.)

    December 1940 Cannock and Colton
    March 1941. Boroughbridge
    June 1941. Keldy Castle
    August 1941. Whitby
    April 1942. Mayfield
    May 1942. Crowborough
    August 1942. Rottingdean and Upper Beeding
    August 1942. 'Canada Farm' near Elvedon
    September 1942. Chippenham Park near Newmarket
    June 1943. Bridlington
    February 1944. Chippenham Park
    April 1944. Milford on Sea
    May 1944. Hursley Park near Southampton
    June 1944. Southampton
    June 1944: Normandy

    26d6m1944 Captain Ian Kerr KIA

    30d6m1944 Major Robert Arbuthnot KIA
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  4. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    The few tanks names for B squadron that I am aware of.

    Bloody Mary
    Black Prince
    Butcher Cumberland
    Blimey Bill

    The Ram (as a replacement for Bloody Mary)

    B Squadron tanks identification Mark was the Yellow Square
     
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  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks Shaun ;-)

    I have some further details for the "B" squadron tanks I/we can edit in later. Including quite a number of their (known or potentially now known) crews in their various roles (So working to the "understanding" of - at least where now known, surmised or guessed at / assumed / still researching or totally "not a clue" yet etc.) ;-)

    There's a bit of wireless traffic covered in NHL - for example p184 - where the Chief Medical officer is listening in with snatches of things like "Charlie Able" for "C" squadron etc. so it will be, I think, "Baker" or "Bravo" perhaps for "B" - easy to check - but again (I'll do that later ;-) anon etc.) so not worth a post - as I'll hopefully edit this, this pm ;-)

    NATO phonetic alphabet - Wikipedia

    Edit: Able - Baker series i.e. here: Allied Military phonetic spelling alphabets - Wikipedia

    I think we know / can find out the actual call signs perhaps for the tanks in the B sqd troops - so surmised the wireless call signs for Bloody Mary, Black Prince, Butcher Cumberland, Blimey Bill. It may not be possible at this point though to do much more than narrow down their call signs to some "possibles" perhaps.

    And of course with break downs and replacements etc. it's a bit more fluid than the initial situation on embarking for D-Day.

    Incidentally, I think I've seen "Armageddon" as a "known tank name" for "A" and perhaps maybe "Campanula" for "C". But on the whole the majority of the tanks were perhaps just "known" to the rest of the regiment by their call sign alone - albeit the individual crews might have had their own names for their own tanks, not written on the tanks and now just largely forgotten, perhaps?

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  6. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Didn't use the NATO stuff in WW2. Used the Able, Baker series.

    An example for, say, the Sgts tank (second tank in the Troop) in First Troop of 'A' Squadron would have been Able One Baker (Squadron/Troop/Tank)
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    This bit of film is from Fri, 31/07/2015 - 101-Year-Old D-Day Veteran Receives Legion D'Honneur

    A veteran who served during the D-Day Landings in France has been decorated by the French government for his bravery.

    101-year-old Ernest Payne, from Brighton, was presented the Legion D'Honneur in recognition of his role serving with the 24th Lancers during the Second World War.

    Forces TV's Carla Prater joined him at his medal presentation


    I'd seen still pictures of the presentation previously but wasn't aware until now that the event had been filmed as well ;-)

    See also:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-17360119

    War veteran, 97, receives medals

    101-year-old war hero bestowed with top bravery medal | The Argus
     
  8. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    From B Squadron I have:-

    BANDIT - 5 Trp
    BRIGAND - 5 Trp
    BUCCANEER T152350 - 5 Trp
    PINUP GIRL - 4 Trp
    BUQ-BUQ? this was used on a Crusader

    cheers

    Kevin
     
  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks Kevin,

    There's def. a picture of the crusader tank "Buq Buq" and driver Trp. Ernest Payne on p37 of NHL. I did wonder if there might have been a fairly good chance that the name was conserved within "B" squadron of the 24th L and also used later on a "B" squadron Sherman hence the question marks.

    There's some mention of some other "B" squadron tank names in NHL as well as in the Cropper book "Dad's War".

    So I think - that from that Cropper ref. for instance that B Sqd. 24th L's PINUP GIRL - Trp 4. went to SRY

    In ref. to tank name conservation in the 24th L there this bit in the Lancer Lifes: 24th Lancers Newsletter: 'Lancer Life'.

    "We have also heard from Lieut.A.K.Wareham. He says he met Lieut.Barry “very much alive and kicking” on the home journey, also Capt.Lobb and that he is now in a Carlisle Hospital in the same ward as Lieut.Leather and Lieut.Dixon. The former has been swathed in bandages which are now “gradually being removed,” and the latter is doing well; there is still a chance that they may be able to save his left hand. After mentioning everyone else Mr.Wareham modestly adds a few words about himself. His arm was fractured above the elbow, and “They thought for a time they might have to take it off at Southampton”. Now they all have appetites like horses and he ends up; “It’s so peaceful here, not even the noise of planes. I’m taking quite an interest in things and getting some reading done, including Thomas a Kempis “The Imitation of Christ” and am reading the Bible right through. It makes me feel guilty when I think of the boys out there. How is RHQ getting on? And is Death IV and its gallant crew still on the road?” Yes, Kenneth they are and nobody sends you such fervent good wishes as they do."

    I don't think we tend to see that many "24th L" tanks with obviously boldly written names, just some of them, though I have asked previously if every tank in the 24th L did in fact have "a name" - i.e. that just the crew or troops knew but may not have necessarily written so obviously on the tank, but an impression I got was that a lot of tanks/crews just used their call sign. Or else that perhaps in some cases the name of a particular tank was deemed just a bit too rude to be too widely broadcast perhaps ;-)

    I am not sure why those particular tanks with names were given them, other than a bit of building traddition etc. although I think a clue I saw a while back was that those named, had been named prior to D-Day for some exercise or specific event, such as involved being in a line and having their photo taken with names displayed etc.

    Pinup Girl stands out a bit here perhaps, as it's apparently a "B" squadron 24th L tank without a name starting with a "B".
    Commanded I think by Cpl Cropper, with Troopers Tutin, Richardson, Gasson and Cornish.

    I can't recall exactly at the mo. if "Pinup Girl" was a replacement Sherman for "B" - following Normandy losses - I think Cpl. Cropper though joined the 24th L circa mid July 1944. So he was a 24th L replacement himself.

    Cropper's later SRY tank “Blue Light Special” Sherman M4A1 Firefly hybrid T269979 - Cpl Cropper, Troopers Snedker, Milner, Jackson and possibly Baker - went back to that "tradition" of using names starting with a "B" for a "B" squadron tank, albeit this time in the SRY.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  10. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Not sure whether Ken Wareham told me or if it's mentioned in None Had Lances but the four Sherman tanks of HQ Squadron were named after the Riders of the Apocalypse. I don't know who (WAC Anderson, David Higginson, Ken Gill or Ken Wareham) had which tank name apart from Ken Warehams steed being named Death (I'm quite sure he mentioned Death III to me so I guess that could have been the one left behind in Bridlington with 3RTR when 24L moved down to Chippenham Park in early 1944).
     
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I'm not even too sure of whether to think too much in terms of "tank names", given that it seems to be a relatively small proportion of 24th L tanks that had them. Though it is, as stated, perfectly possible that many crew had their own names for their own tanks.

    At least with an actual call sign designation we know that each tank would have had one of them and we can tend to get some clues perhaps as to whether the particular tank was the tank of the officer leading the troop, the troop Sergeant or Cpl.

    A problem with call signs however might be that they would tend to go with the crew, not with the tank, so if a particular tank is knocked out or disabled / temporarily damaged the crew might switch to another tank and keep the same call sign, but now be in a completely different tank.

    I was just looking through some notes to find the bit where my gd just referred to his "C" squadron 24th L Sherman tank as "the Crate" and finding some descriptive bits that told details on others too - but I think really that will have to go into the "C" Sqd. 24th L thread, i.e. not here, in this bit of "B". So see link: 24th Lancers - "C" Squadron

    There are some "B" squadron 24th L veteran accounts though that similarly have details and descriptive bits. And still plenty more to unearth etc.

    Ps. For in ref. to the "Four Horsemen" of HQ Sqd 24th L Clough, William John Bland (Oral history) | Imperial War Museums

    (Nb. William Clough transferred into the SRY prior to the 24th L's disbandment)

    IWM Audio - not currently available to listen to on line but with description of contents given i.e.

    CLOUGH, WILLIAM JOHN BLAND (ORAL HISTORY)

    Object description
    British trooper served as gunner/driver with 24th Lancers and Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry in GB and North West Europe, 1944-1945, including Normandy landings, France, 6/1944; POW in Stalag X-B, Sandbostel, Lower Saxony, Germany, 4/1945.

    Content description
    REELS 1-7: Recollections of family background, childhood, education and employment in Westmoor and Burradon, Tyne and Wear, GB, 1923-1941. REEL 8 Continues: story of being called up and posted to Royal Armoured Corps, 1941: description of civilian employment as carpenter making aeroplane wings; problem of finding way around London; description of journey to Tidworth Camp, Wiltshire. REEL 9 Continues: Aspects of training with Royal Armoured Corps in GB, 1941: description of barracks at Tidworth Camp; issued with uniform and kit; method of applying blanco to webbing; sleeping arrangements; opinion of food; innoculations; problem of uniform not fitting; drill; intelligence test; opinion of NAAFI facilities; problem of arm swelling from innoculations; story of punishment by RSM for not polishing cap badge. REEL 10 Continues: description of Bren gun training; proficiency in Morse code; route marches; posted to Bovington Camp, Dorset; issued with tropical kit; posted to Catterick Camp, Yorkshire, for further basic training; story of illness caused by innoculations; entered for boxing team; description of camp and facilities; educational classes; learned to drive lorry; description of tank training on Yorkshire moors; story of tank getting stuck in bog; gunnery training at Hornsea; opinion of 2-pounder gun on tank; posted to 24th Lancers, 12/1941. Aspects of training with 24th Lancers in GB, 12/1941-6/1944: issued with cap badge; posted to HQ Sqdn; opinion of Crusader tank; description of tank training at Chippenham Park, Suffolk; story about illiterate trooper Tom Castle; organisation of HQ Sqdn; number of tanks and crew; description of training as tank gunner. REEL 11 Continues: opinion of cavalry officers; story of being put on fatigues by Provost Sgt; problem of gun on Crusader being too small; opinion of Sherman tank and problem with operating gun; amusing story about Maj. Anderson; Regt entrained from Newmarket to Bridlington, 1942; story of tanks being named after Four Horsemen of Apocalypse; description of training at Huntley Hall; story of injuring thumb while loading tank with shells; participation in Divisional boxing competition; physical training; description of improvement to gun on Sherman; posted to Dundreggan, Scotland, for further training, 1943; problem of mud; story of helping with potato picking. REEL 12 Continues: Regt entrained to Milford-on-Sea, late 1943; description of DD tanks and method of waterproofing; trained with breathing apparatus; role in ferrying new tanks from Slough to Havant; opinion of food at US army camp; secrecy in camp; embarked with tanks aboard LCT; description of crossing from Gosport to France, night of 5-6/Jun/1944. Aspects of operations with 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Bde in Normandy, France, 6-7/Jun/1944: description of ration packs in tank; problem of LCT not reaching landing beach; description of tanks driving through water onto landing beach; story of tank being hit by shell; description of conditions on landing beach; transferred to Sherman DD tank with Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, 7/Jun/1944. Aspects of operations with Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, 8th Armoured Bde in Normandy, France, 7/Jun-16/Aug/1944: use of flail tanks to clear mines; advanced to Bayeux; problem of breaking out of bridgehead. REEL 13 Continues: description of being shelled by German nebelwerfers; opinion of air cover from Typhoons; tank concealed in ditch; problem of having to remain in tank for long period; description of Allied artillery barrage; story of Hitler Youth members attacking tanks; attitude to use of flamethrowers on tanks; story of keeping chickens in tank; description of shells landing close to tank; use of shell crater to conceal tank; rations; story about Scottish trooper wounded by shrapnel; story of shell hitting turret of tank; reaction to loss of friends in 24th Lancers. REEL 14 Continues: story about using Morse code during training exercise in Bridlington, GB; description of advance across France; story of helping wounded trooper after tank hit by shell at Bergeaux; story of being wounded in foot by shrapnel; story about death of friend Arthur Brooks. REEL 15 Continues: various memories of friends in 24th Lancers and Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry; description of medical treatment at field hospital, 8/1944. Aspects of period in GB, 8-12/1944: description of medical treatment at hospitals in Basingstoke, Leeds and Bradford; story about Polish patient; period of convalescence in Halifax; posted back to Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry in Nijmegen, Netherlands, 12/1944. REEL 16 Continues: Aspects of operations with Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, 8th Armoured Bde in Netherlands and Germany, 12/1944-4/1945: weather conditions; role as gunner/driver; nature of terrain; role of Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry reinforcing US forces; rest period; use of searchlights to find way at night; description of arrival in Cleves, Germany; problem of damage to tank; story of looting goods including accordion and motorcycle; opinion of billet in house; story of using debris to form crossing point over river; story of using smoke screen to cross bridge over river. REEL 17 Continues: story of large number of German troops surrendering; description of crossing Rhine on rafts at Wesel; construction of Bailey bridge by Royal Engineers; story of finding safe full of money; description of journey to German border; role in liberation of Hengelo, Netherlands, 3/Apr/1945; story of watching female collaborators having heads shaved; description of crossing Dortmund-Ems Canal; organisation of tanks; position as third tank at front of column; opinion of 17-pounder gun; nature of terrain; story of being ambushed and captured by Germans at Lastrup, Germany, 12/Apr/1945. REEL 18 Continues: Aspect of period as POW in Germany, 12-29/Apr/1945:amusing story of interrogation by Prussian officer; story of meeting RAF pilot and wireless operator from own tank; description of walk to Bremen; story of receiving medical treatment for blistered feet on German Red Cross train; story about Gestapo officer; description of Typhoon strafing Red Cross train; taken to prison in Cuxhaven; description of conditions in solitary confinement cell and problem of claustrophobia; story about visit to German guard’s home. REEL 19 Continues: story of having drink with German farmers in pub; description of walk to POW camp Stalag X-B, Sandbostel, Lower Saxony; story of obtaining receipt for money at guardhouse; description of camp, accommodation and sanitary facilities; wide range of nationalities in camp; opinion of living conditions; story of talking to Russian officer; attitude to treatment of Russian POWs; received Red Cross parcels; story of Russian POWs shot while trying to escape; problem of typhus and scabies in camp; story of infecting daughter with typhus bacteria on return home; description of camp being liberated by British troops, 29/Apr/1945; medical examination; flew from Hanover back to GB, 5/1945. Aspects of period in GB, 1945-1946: description of disinfection process; problem of experiencing post-traumatic stress; posted to rehabilitation centre at Crawley; reason for staying in Army; posted to Staffordshire Yeomanry as carpenter. REEL 20 Continues: posted to transit camp at Newmarket after Staffordshire Yeomanry disbanded; posted to Bovington Camp, Dorset; duties in technical stores; demobilized at Aldershot, 1946.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
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  12. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Some other names and numbers:-

    RHQ - Sherman III
    DEATH, DEATH II, DEATH III, DEATH IV
    FAMINE
    PESTILENCE
    WAR
    A Sqn
    ARRAN - Crusader T44586
    'APPY 'AMPSTEAD - Sherman III
    ARMAGEDDON

    Numbers:-
    HQ
    T152881 - Sherman III
    A Sqn 3 Trp
    T150995 - Sherman III ( Courtesy Steve Pannell )
    T151040 - Sherman III replaces T152214 ( Courtesy Steve Pannell )
    T151317 - Sherman III replaces T150995 ( Courtesy Steve Pannell )
    T152214 - Sherman III KO'd 12/6/1944 ( Courtesy Steve Pannell )
    T152248
    T148496 - Sherman Vc ( Trp not known )

    If anyone can match names to numbers or add anything please let me know.

    I also have Covenater, Valentine and Universal carrier numbers used by 24th Lancers if anyone is interested.

    ** I have T269979 as BLUE LIGHT SPECIAL II, with T232668 being BLUE LIGHT SPECIAL - a Sherman III

    cheers
    Kevin
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
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  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    In passing ref. to "Buq Buq" - there was a 24th L Lieut. Jack Crane (attached from "C" squadron 24th L) KIA with the 5 R.T.R. - War Grave in NHL p232 - El Alamein.

    Casualty

    Lieutenant CRANE, JACK HEMERY
    Service Number 172905

    Died 24/10/1942

    Aged 22

    24th Lancers,
    Royal Armoured Corps

    attd. 5th Royal Tank Regiment, R.A.C.

    Son of Frederick William and Bertha Crane, of Ealing, Middlesex

    I had wondered if there was - just a chance - that this tank had been named by the 24th L in reference to that, however drew a bit of a blank pursuing only half pursued leads with "5 R.T.R. and Buq Buq" assocations with the battle there.

    I suppose that "Buq Buq" might have been a tank with that name that the 24th L got from another regiment, or that they were looking for some relevant names for a B squadron tank and "Buq Buq" was in the news.

    I just found it a bit of a curious thread any how ;-)

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
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  14. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    With thanks to Steve (SDP) and his permission etc ;-)

    Here's "B" Squadron of the 24th L - as they were embarking for D-Day...

    B_Squadron_24th_L.JPG

    The actual crews etc. i.e. in which roles, in each tank has been a far more involved process, to start to unravel, but it's gradually being "unpicked" ;-) given that the information is so variously and widely scattered about and in the grey areas of FOW etc ;-)
     
  15. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I suppose, to narrow down possibilities, it might at least be feasible to collate, in some ways, whatever at least is now known about each. i.e. any pictures of said tanks (where available - tho. it is limited I know ;-), known locations (i.e. St.Leger, Point 103, Rauray etc) of these tanks previously and when etc. (the "when" - helping, perhaps, to identify an otherwise unmarked tank as to which squadron it might have been in - with assistance from the war diaries, various ref. books etc.

    So when there is an obvious picture, in a given location and the tank can be identified by a name, number or any known crew.

    So for instance - T148496 - Sherman Vc ( Trp not known )

    i.e. Sherman tank "T148496" - Google Search

    To... (and etc.) : Carli Danilo Dan Taylor Decal Set 8th Armoured Brigade & Gold beach

    To quote: "Mk Vc T148496, 24 Lancers A Sqn. Correct as depicted [IWM B5416], but the triangle should be also on the rear turret bin (in the original tank photo, it is hidden by some personal items, but it is visible on another Firefly of the same unit). See notes below for the glacis."

    And Steve (SDP) knows which troop of "A" Squadron was the Firefly troop (although there was a Firefly in the fighting HQ troop of "A" too so that's a slight hiccup / snag to that "hasty" ;-) surmise ;-)

    There's a ref. to this somewhere that I will have to dig out and - post here (hopefully momentarily in edit) ;-)

    Edit - "A Squadron" Firefly Troop = 4th Troop with TCs Hart, Caulfield and Jones"
    From ref: i.e. : Sherman Firefly - the tank and how best to use it etc

    I'm just guessing here, at the mo., but is T148496 - Sherman Vc the 24th L picture nr. St.Leger (Normandy) ?

    Edit 2 - THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944 | Imperial War Museums

    Object description
    A Sherman Firefly tank of 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Brigade, near St Leger, 11 June 1944.

    Though I suppose the question here is also, is the tank known, or just now quite widely thought to be - an "A" Squadron tank of the 24th L ?

    This ref. : 24th Lancers - "C" Squadron

    Seems to answer that, in the affirmative for "A" of the 24th L. - with what tho. B&W would seem to be a yellow triangle on the turret there (as in B&W the yellow comes out noticeably far brighter than either the Red (4/7 RDG) or Blue (SRY) of 8th Armoured Brigade ;-)

    i.e. see 24th Lancers - "C" Squadron (again)

    Then there is the picture of the HQ Tanks harboured in an orchard nr. Rauray, 29th June 1944 IWM - THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944 | Imperial War Museums

    The IWM ref. for that currently says:

    Object description
    Sherman tanks of 1st Nottinghamshire Yeomanry, 8th Armoured Brigade in an orchard near Rauray, 30 June 1944.

    But I think we've a case for these being 24th L's HQ marks. :unsure:

    And that tying in (I think) with the wardiaries of the 24th L and SRY too, and where each Regiment was at that time.

    Tho. there isn't a thread yet ;-) for either HQ Squadron or "A" Squadron of the 24th L :smug:

    If it's a look into one particular picture, or just one particular tank it might need, even to be separate (i.e. with its own relevant heading) from that. e.g. "What is now known about the Sherman Firefly Mk Vc T148496" or similar etc.:whistle:
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
  16. You're right, it looks like there might be a case here, all the more so as the IWM caption for B6218 used to state 24 L instead of the current 1 N YEO. I don't know for sure what prompted them to change the unit, but I suspect the reason is because they found out that 'AKILLA' in B6222 was not 24 L as they also used to state, but 1 N YEO. They might have concluded that B6218 was showing a tank of the same unit, because it was shot by the same photographer on the same day and probably in the same place (a quite convincing argument I must say!):
    THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944 | Imperial War Museums

    The light colour of the Sqn symbol in B6218 is not in itself a sufficient clue, because a Blue colour or even a Red colour could look that way depending on the filter used by the photographer for this particular photo.

    In conclusion, unless somebody can positively identify the chaps by the scout car as 24 L, my own opinion bends towards 1 N YEO too.

    Michel
     
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  17. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Akilla was definitely Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry. I guess the person to ask about the Tank in the Rauray orchard would be the chaps who crewed it (T152881)........I reckon it's 24th Lancers anyway - look at the perceived round shape of that chaps cap badge - but of course I might be biased for some reason? :)
     
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  18. IWM listings of photos series make interesting reading. They are sorted by unit, as per the photographer's dope sheet apparently, with the unit first, in capital letters, then the description, then the negative number(s) after an hyphen. Here's the part regarding 24 L, extracted from the "B" Series listing (line separations by me, to facilitate reading):

    "24th LANCERS
    Tanks moving up the outskirts of St Leger, 11.6.44 - B 5416-17
    Lt Col Anderson (24 L), Lt Col Christopherson (Sherwood Rangers), Brig Crawcroft ( * Armd Bde) in conference near Rauray, 29.6.44 - B 6219
    Tanks in orchard near Rauray, 29.6.44 - B 6218
    Tanks passing knocked out Panther near Rauray, 29.6.44 - B 6226"
    Source: Collection: WAR OFFICE SECOND WORLD WAR OFFICIAL COLLECTION | Imperial War Museums
    Note: the '*' in '( * Armd Bde)' in B 6219 must be seen as a typo for the numeral '8'

    We can see that:
    B6218 changed from (24 L) 29.6.44 to (1 N YEO) 30.6.44
    B6226 changed from (24 L) 29.6.44 to (24 L) 30.6.44

    so even the dates are not quite firm...

    And there are pitifully few photos identified as 24 L.

    Back to the RHQ Sherman in B6218, it could finally be 24 L, because of the light colour of the diamond symbol naturally, but also because of its size, which was (usually) smaller for 24 L than for SRY (cf. the large size of the circle on SRY C Sqn Sherman DD tanks). But even this rule of thumb is not too reliable, because the difference in size (and shade, too!) between the triangles on B5258 (SRY) and B5416 (24 L) for example is not exactly crying (approximately 37% & 33% of apparent turret height respectively):
    B_005258 vs 5416.jpg

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  19. It finally seems that the series of photos in the orchard 'near Rauray' were shot on 29th June, and not on 30th June as 'corrected' by the IWM in their more recent captions. Sgt Ginger took some film clips on that day, showing, somewhat infuriatingly, almost exactly the same subjects under the same angles as Sgt Christie in his still photography, thus not adding anything to what we already know, apart from his clipboard confirming the actual date. See British Pathé 1899.23 here (starting at 00:57): Invasion Scenes
    1899_23_57 - GINGER 29 Jun 44.jpg

    I found a couple of the 'missing' (i.e. not online) IWM photos of the same series. Here is B6219, showing a Brigade 'O' Group consisting of, according to the IWM caption as per their listing, from left to right, an unidentified 8 Armd Bde officer, Lt Col Anderson (24 L) [with the binoculars], Lt Col Christopherson (Sherwood Rangers) [in the dark battledress, leaning over the Jeep bonnet], and Brig Cracroft (8 Armd Bde) in conference 'near Rauray':
    B_006219 - HHS55 p157.jpg

    Of note is another RHQ Sherman III tank in the background, which is neither of the tanks on B6218 (different gun mantle) but bears similar markings. As all to often, an important marking (here, the unit serial number beneath the brigade emblem) is obscured by some thoughtless fellow standing in the way :mad:.

    Next negative number is B6220, said to show Pte W. Burnett of Linlithgow (W. Lothian) of the 1st Bn Tyneside Scottish, 70th Infantry Brigade, 49th Division, who were indeed near Rauray on 29th June:
    B_006220 - HHS55 p157.jpg

    Now, in order to find out whether those RHQ tanks belongs to 24 L or to the SRY, we would need to know whether the CO of 24 L went to visit that of the SRY together with the Brigadier, or the reverse, and whether they took their RHQ tanks with them or not...

    Michel
     
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  20. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. Here is B6219, showing a Brigade 'O' Group consisting of, according to the IWM caption as per their listing, from left to right, an unidentified 8 Armd Bde officer, Lt Col Anderson (24 L) [with the binoculars], Lt Col Christopherson (Sherwood Rangers) [in the dark battledress, leaning over the Jeep bonnet], and Brig Cracroft (8 Armd Bde) in conference 'near Rauray':

    The "unidentified 8 Armd Bde officer" is Major W.H.C.Luddington - who was in charge of "C" squadron of the 24th L.

    The picture is reproduced on p162 of NHL.

    For those dates the 24th L WD has...

    28/6/44 - Les Hauts Vents - In the afternoon, Recce Tp moved out to the Tessel Wood feature and ‘B’ Sqn returned to the Regiment which moved to a fresh defensive position in the Les Hauts Vents area. Recce Tp maintained wireless touch with the Regiment in case the Regiment should be needed to engage the enemy counter attack on the Tessel feature. During the day, Officers and men of the Regiment took the opportunity of examining a Tiger and a Panther tank which had been captured intact by the Sherwood Rangers.

    29/6/44 The Regiment remained at Les Hauts Vents area during the day, moving out and deploying on Pt. 102, 8769, in the evening to be prepared to resist the possibility of an enemy attack. Later in the evening the Regiment resumed its original positions.

    Rauray - 30/6/44 The Regiment moved up and deployed in the Rauray area which was held by us but encompassed by enemy patrols and it was believed that an enemy counter attack on this position was imminent.


    Whilst the SRY WD has...

    28th June 1944 - A Sqn was relieved by 4/7 D.G. who with the Inf. were to attack the high ground 1,000yds South of RAURAY, and marked on the maps CONTOUR 110. Unfortunately Army has claimed our Tiger and Panther, which we had hoped to use against the Germans. However we plastered them with our Bde sign the Fox’s Mask and Regt’l No, 996.

    29th June 1944 - Regt withdrew to just North of FONTENAY. Six new Subalterns arrived, but their state of tng has yet to be found out. Regt remained in reserve throughout the day.

    30th June 1944 - Report came in that 10 German Tanks had concentrated in an area South of FONTENAY and A Sqn were sent out to take up battle posns in the area of St NICHOLAS’ FARM. 500 heavy bombers attacked VILLERS BOCAGE and as a result, 2 houses are left standing. Regt moved up again + took over from 24L.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018

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