231st Brigade 50th Div

Discussion in 'Higher Formations' started by Koen, May 2, 2014.

  1. Koen

    Koen Member

    Hello,

    In the beginning of September 1944 the 231st Brigade was attached to the Guards Armoured Division.
    On the 3rd of September the GAD raced from Douai to Brussels and the 231 Brigade was right on his tail.
    They where ordered to mob up the remaining German strong points and help the Belgian resistance with the German POW.
    On his way to Brussels the Brigade past true Halle or Hal and I was wondering if the city is mentioned in the brigades War Dairy's.
    Can somebody help me with this?

    Regards Koen
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Sorry I don't have a copy of the diary. Steve may be able to help as he's quite clued up on all things 50 Div.

    This is the war diary ref: WO 171/715 HQ 231 Infantry Brigade 1944 July- Dec. I suspect it may be quite thick though. What battalions do you have in the brigade?

    Regards
    Andy
     
  3. Koen

    Koen Member

    1st Bn,Dorsetshire
    1st Bn, The Hampshire
    2nd Bn, The Devonshire
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I've got the Hampshire's history and the Devonshire's 1944 war diary so I'll look those up for you later to see if Halle is mentioned if that's any good?

    A
     
  5. Koen

    Koen Member

    That is fine fore me.
     
  6. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Koen,

    I can't see any specific mention..

    Attached are the applicable pages of the War Diaries for 231st Infantry Brigade. Do you see anything that helps?

    The pages for the three battalions - 1st Bn Dorsetshire Regiment, 1st Bn Hampshire Regiment and 2nd Bn Devonshire Regiment appear to exceed the 2MB attachment size restriction and so are not attached; but nor did I see any mention of Halle in them...

    Happy to delve further if you see anything relevant!

    NB. I also have the 1st Bn Dorsets and Hampshire Regiment histories if you wish me to so refer...

    Best,

    Steve.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Koen

    Koen Member

    Hello,

    Thank you very much Steve. I knew it was a long shot that Halle would be mentioned in the dairy.
    Can you tell me where the brigade halted for the night? They refer to the position as 415387 I assume it is a map coordinate.
    Do the Battalions dairy's describe the route they took towards Brussels? What happened to the German soldiers that where taken POW by the Brigade?

    I also noticed that the Belgian Brigade Group is mentioned. Did they co-operate with the Brigade or were they just following the advance of the GAD?

    Regards Koen
     
  8. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Koen,

    I can assist with most of your questions and will revert later with answers!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi Koen

    Would these two CAB 44 files be of any interest to you? They normaly contain between 200 and 400 pages in each file give or take a 100.

    CAB 44/252
    Committee of Imperial Defence, Historical Branch and Cabinet Office, Historical Section: War Histories: Draft Chapters and Narratives, Military. WAR OF 1939-1945. North West Europe. Section D, chapter V: advance from the river Seine to the Seigfried Line and the battle for Arnhem 1944 Aug.29-Sept. 30; book I, headquarters 21 army group directives and intelligence summaries, by Lieutenant-Colonel G. W. Harris. open in 1983.

    CAB 44/253
    Committee of Imperial Defence, Historical Branch and Cabinet Office, Historical Section: War Histories: Draft Chapters and Narratives, Military. WAR OF 1939-1945. North West Europe. Section D, chapter V: advance from the river Seine to the Siegfried Line and the battle for Arnhem 1944 Aug.29-Sept. 30; book II, advance from the river Seine to Brussels and Antwerp; capture of Le Havre; Boulogne, Calais and Dunkirk, by Lieutenant-Colonel G. W. Harris. open in 1983.

    CAB 44/253
    Committee of Imperial Defence, Historical Branch and Cabinet Office, Historical Section: War Histories: Draft Chapters and Narratives, Military. WAR OF 1939-1945. North West Europe. Section D, chapter V: advance from the river Seine to the Siegfried Line and the battle for Arnhem 1944 Aug. 29-Sept. 30; book III, operation 'Market Garden' and the action at Arnhem, by Lieutenant-Colonel G. W. Harris. Includes 3 photographs depicting: Arnhem: aerial reconnaissance photographs, contained in Liberation Campaign North West Europe (phase 5). Dated 1944. open in 1983.
     
  10. Koen

    Koen Member

    Hello Drew,

    These file are interesting to me.
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I think there's around 25 to 30 in total covering the whole of the NWE campaign from D-Day to the surrender of Germany, quite a few are on Canadian units/actions.. The CAB files are Cabinet Files for the British government and the CAB 44 series appears to be the British Governments official account of what actually happened in WW2. I can email you a spread sheet if you like with them all on?
     
  12. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Koen,

    The 231st Infantry Brigade were put under command of the Guards Armoured Division for the duration of the advance from Arras to Brussels and likewise, the Belgian Brigade was put under command of the 231st Infantry Brigade for the duration of the advance.

    Guards Armoured advanced in two columns and so, the 231st Infantry Brigade was split into two columns. The left hand column consisted of 2nd Devons, followed by 1st Dorsets. The right hand column consisted of the 1st Hampshires, followed by the Belgian Brigade, followed by 231st Infantry Brigade HQ. Both columns had supporting toops from 90th Field Regiment, RA; 102nd (Northumberland Hussars) A-T Regiment, RA; 25th LAA, RA; 295th Field Coy, RE; and 'C' Coy, 2nd Cheshire Regiment (MG).

    The left hand column were to follow the route Auby, Mons-en-Pevele, Pont-a-Marcq, Tournai, Lessines, Viarie, and Castre to Brussels. The 2nd Devons were involved in heavy fighting at Pont-a-Marcq and the 1st Dorsets passed around them - the Devons bedding down on the night of the 3 September 1944 at Genech, 6 miles from the Belgian border, with the Dorsets bedding down in fields on the southern edge of Tournai. It appears that on reaching Enghien the following morning, this column turned North East travelling to the Ninove - Brussels Road and on into Brussels. The Devons eventually took up positions in the centre of Brussels, the Dorsets to the south east at Bois de la Cambre.

    Unfortunately, the information about the right hand column is sparse in as much as the 1st Hampshire's War Diary does not include many place names, relying instead on map coordinates. The only names mentioned are Arras, Croly and Brussels. It appears that the 231st Infantry Brigade HQ bedded down on the night of 3 September 1944 at '415387' and the 1st Hampshires at '416387', the latter moving to Croly the next morning. It appears that the right hand column did not see much action during the advance and I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the Belgian Brigade's involvement turned out to be more ceremonial - it entered Brussels two hours after the 231st Infantry Brigade HQ to a 'BIG' reception from the locals.

    All PoWs and there were many hundreds taken, were handed over to the FFI (in France) and the Belgian Maquis (in Belgium). I read that PoWs taken in Lessines by the 1st Dorsets were locked up in the local prison by the Belgian Maquis.

    I could not find where Croly is/was located, but I believe this may be near Quenast. If so, it appears that the right hand column may have been pointed on Halle. Are you able to confirm this? Another avenue to explore would be the 1st Hampshire map coordinates (there are lots of them), but we would need assistance with this - I don't have the technical resources to help with this.

    I trust this assists.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
    Koen likes this.
  13. Koen

    Koen Member

    Hello Steve,

    This information is a great help for my research. It is indeed unfortunately that the information on the right hand column is sparse Halle is located that route.
    So there is a chance that the 1st Hampshire or the Brigade HQ halted for the night near Halle. Figuring out the map coordinates would be a great help.
    The stream of vehicles must have been enormous passing true. First the 2nd Bn Welsh Guards and Household Cavalry followed by the 1st Bn Welsh Guards, 3rd Bn Irish Guards, 5th Bn Coldstream Guards, 1st Independent MG Company Northumberland Fusiliers, the RA and RE regiments.

    In the meantime I did some research on the involvement of the Belgian Brigade during the advance. And I also have the impression the involvement turned out to be more ceremonial. I think that the British wanted boost the moral of the Belgian public.

    Does the war dairy's of the 1st Hampshireand 231st Brigade contain operations orders? The map coordinates could be mentioned in the orders.

    Regards Koen
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  15. Koen

    Koen Member

    Thanks Owen. I used the site and I found the location It is near Petit-Enghien.
     
  16. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Thanks Owen. I have used the translator and report hereunder.

    I agree, Koen. Both the 1st Hampshire's and 231st Infantry Brigade HQ halted for the night near Petit Enghien.

    They then moved only a short distance the following day and at 15.00 pm were concentrated in the area Rebecq - 'D' Coy, Croly - Battalion HQ and 'B' Coy, and Quenast - 'C' Coy. 'A' Coy was preparing for the 'Liberators' march through Brussels and its whereabouts is not specified. Not much paperwork of use to you in the 1st Hampshires War Diary. Better paperwork in the 1st Dorsets War Diary, but that refers to the left hand column. I'll have another read through the 231st Infantry Brigade's War Diary...

    Although not part of your research a great story has emerged from this thread (for me anyway) for what was my great grandfather's battalion - the 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers.

    You may be aware that on 21 May 1940 the 151st Infantry Brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division, undertook the Arras counter-attack against the lines of communication/administration of the advanced Panzer Divisions driving for the French coast, and are credited with causing Hitler's 'Halt' order. In the thick of the fighting that day and the day after, was the 50 Div's Recce Battalion - the 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. This battalion was later renamed 50th Reconnaissance Regiment (50th Recce). It left 50 Div for the duration of WWII whilst both were in the Western Desert and suffered almost complete destruction by the DAK at Knightsbridge (and its surrounds) in early June 1942. Like the phoenix, from the remnants of 50th Recce the 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusliers was resurrected and from which sprung the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Independent MG Coys Royal Northumberland Fusiliers.

    At Message #13 you mention that the 1st Independent MG Coy Royal Northumberland Fusiliers was supporting the Guards Armoured. I knew this to be its role, but had never made the connection that they had been involved in another attack against the enemy that started (at least in part) from Arras. Not only that they were working again with elements of the 50th (Northumbrian) Division; their historic parent Division. Almost poetic...

    I will revert when I have re-read the 231st Infantry Brigade War Diary!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  17. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Koen,

    The 231st Infantry Brigade were ordered to move to Antwerp on the 5 September 1944, so were in the Brussels area only on 3 and 4 September 1944.

    There are no operations orders for the right hand column that I can see, either in the War Diary of the 231st Infantry Brigade or of the 1st Bn Hampshire Regiment. I have, however, attached the Sitreps for those two days.

    Halle is not mentioned in the battalion history index of the 1st Dorsets, 1st Hampshires or 2nd Cheshires; and I don't have the history of the 2nd Devons. Nor is it mentioned in 'The Path of the 50th' (Clay).

    I can't see evidence of 231st Infantry Brigade, or elements of it, having been in Halle. Why do you believe that it was? Do you happen to know the 'modified British system' map coordinates for Halle?

    Best,

    Steve.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Koen

    Koen Member

    On the 3rd of September the Guards Armoured Division liberated the city of Halle. The 231st Brigade was attached to the GAD and was orderd to round up the remaining German resistend.
    So I assumed that the Brigade followed the Guards in to Halle and cleared the city of Germans while the Guards raced on to Brussels.
    I found these map cordinates in the 13th Brigade war dairy: 533428. It's not the centre of Halle but is close.

    Regards Koen
     

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