226 Sqn RAF

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by U311reasearcher, Apr 3, 2009.

  1. I am hoping that somebody may be able to assist me.

    My cousin Robert Smith was shot down and killed by the Germans during the second world war.

    After some research I think I have located his whereabouts.

    The information I have is:

    cemetery: Groesbeek Canadian War Cemetery
    country: Netherlands
    rank: Flight Sergeant
    official number: R/188247
    unit: 220 RAF Sqdn Royal Canadain Air Force
    nationality: Canadian
    details: 04/11/1944


    The only problem that we have, is that this Robert Smith does not have a mother/fathher listed as next of kin on the website we found the above info.

    The Robert Smith we are seeking had parents with the following names:

    Ernie Smith
    Florence Smith (Picken)

    Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

    John Picken
     
  2. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    I am hoping that somebody may be able to assist me.

    My cousin Robert Smith was shot down and killed by the Germans during the second world war.

    After some research I think I have located his whereabouts.

    The information I have is:

    cemetery: Groesbeek Canadian War Cemetery
    country: Netherlands
    rank: Flight Sergeant
    official number: R/188247
    unit: 220 RAF Sqdn Royal Canadain Air Force
    nationality: Canadian
    details: 04/11/1944


    The only problem that we have, is that this Robert Smith does not have a mother/fathher listed as next of kin on the website we found the above info.

    The Robert Smith we are seeking had parents with the following names:

    Ernie Smith
    Florence Smith (Picken)

    Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

    John Picken


    Hi John,
    the C.W.G.C. do not necessarily record parents names. I am not too sure but I think these details are added at the Families request.

    The answer would be to either send an Email or write to the Enquiries section at C.W.G.C.

    Brian
     
  3. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    John,

    Are you quite sure you have the correct airman as No.220 Squadron RAF, from 1943 until the end of the war the flew anti-submarine patrols across the South Atlantic hunting U-boats. During November 1944 No.220 Squadron were operating out of Lagens, the Azores, with detachments at Gibraltar and Thorney Island with the Fortress III.

    Might have this wrong but I cannot see one of their crew members being lost over Holland.

    Could you please supply more details?


    Regards
    Peter

    PS.

    Just found the details for F/S Smith of No.220 Squadron.

    Name: SMITH, ROBERT ALEXANDER
    Initials: R A
    Nationality: Canadian
    Rank: Flight Sergeant (W.Op./Air Gnr.)
    Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force
    Unit Text: 220 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
    Date of Death: 04/11/1944
    Service No: R/188247
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: XVII. A. 7.
    Cemetery: GROESBEEK CANADIAN WAR CEMETERY

    I'll attempt to discover more info on this.
     
  4. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Seems to be a mistake on the CWGC site re the squadron number. I believe this to be your man.

    Regards

    Peter.


    4 November 1944
    No.226 Squadron
    Mitchell FW163: Y
    15:45

    Hit by Flak (Venlo) Force-landed B.80 . Cat 'B'.

    Sgt.H.J.Lorkin
    Sgt.N.Semple
    F/Sgt.T.V.Flint +
    F/Sgt.R.A.Smith +

    At Volkel, Typhoon pilots of 245 Squadron waiting to enter the runway for take-off, were horrified to see two crew attempt to bale out of a crippled Mitchell shortly before it touched down; both fell in the undershoot area and were killed instantly. The Mitchell, which had been hit by Flak while attacking the road and rail bridge at Venlo (a particularly stubborn target), crash-landed; the pilot and navigator survived.



    Thanks to Col Bruggy
     
    James S likes this.
  5. John,

    Are you quite sure you have the correct airman as No.220 Squadron RAF, from 1943 until the end of the war the flew anti-submarine patrols across the South Atlantic hunting U-boats. During November 1944 No.220 Squadron were operating out of Lagens, the Azores, with detachments at Gibraltar and Thorney Island with the Fortress III.

    Might have this wrong but I cannot see one of their crew members being lost over Holland.

    Could you please supply more details?


    Regards
    Peter

    PS.

    Just found the details for F/S Smith of No.220 Squadron.

    Name: SMITH, ROBERT ALEXANDER
    Initials: R A
    Nationality: Canadian
    Rank: Flight Sergeant (W.Op./Air Gnr.)
    Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force
    Unit Text: 220 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
    Date of Death: 04/11/1944
    Service No: R/188247
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: XVII. A. 7.
    Cemetery: GROESBEEK CANADIAN WAR CEMETERY

    I'll attempt to discover more info on this.


    Thanks, the above is the only info I have, it seems we were on the same website for that info.SMITH, ROBERT ALEXANDER , my grandfather states that Robert was killed in 1941, however, I can't seem to find a listing for 1941 that would be a Robert Smith-air gunner. I may also be wrong with the above info..even though I think it's the Robert Smith I am seeking.
     
  6. Seems to be a mistake on the CWGC site re the squadron number. I believe this to be your man.

    Regards

    Peter.


    4 November 1944
    No.226 Squadron
    Mitchell FW163: Y
    15:45

    Hit by Flak (Venlo) Force-landed B.80 . Cat 'B'.

    Sgt.H.J.Lorkin
    Sgt.N.Semple
    F/Sgt.T.V.Flint +
    F/Sgt.R.A.Smith +

    At Volkel, Typhoon pilots of 245 Squadron waiting to enter the runway for take-off, were horrified to see two crew attempt to bale out of a crippled Mitchell shortly before it touched down; both fell in the undershoot area and were killed instantly. The Mitchell, which had been hit by Flak while attacking the road and rail bridge at Venlo (a particularly stubborn target), crash-landed; the pilot and navigator survived.



    Thanks to Col Bruggy


    I wonder if this Robert Smith was an air-gunner?

    That much I do know, he was an air gunner, my grandfather states that he died in 1941, but I can't seem to find a Canadian air force gunner with this name who perished in 1941...

    Thanks for helping! This is a puzzle for my family which I am sure has an answer out there! Is their any way to find out more about the Robert Smith mentioned above?
     
  7. Seems to be a mistake on the CWGC site re the squadron number. I believe this to be your man.

    Regards

    Peter.


    4 November 1944
    No.226 Squadron
    Mitchell FW163: Y
    15:45

    Hit by Flak (Venlo) Force-landed B.80 . Cat 'B'.

    Sgt.H.J.Lorkin
    Sgt.N.Semple
    F/Sgt.T.V.Flint +
    F/Sgt.R.A.Smith +

    At Volkel, Typhoon pilots of 245 Squadron waiting to enter the runway for take-off, were horrified to see two crew attempt to bale out of a crippled Mitchell shortly before it touched down; both fell in the undershoot area and were killed instantly. The Mitchell, which had been hit by Flak while attacking the road and rail bridge at Venlo (a particularly stubborn target), crash-landed; the pilot and navigator survived.



    Thanks to Col Bruggy


    Peter:

    Thanks for digging up this info for me.

    Just today I was with a retired Lt Col at CFB Borden who supplied me with some of the details of my cousins passing.

    I found out that the actual squadron was 226 squadron, but the info you provided is definitely my cousin.

    I found out that they were hit by flak at 10000 feet and forced to make a belly landing at Vokel.

    Thanks!
     
  8. avane

    avane Junior Member

    Hi John,

    At airbase Volkel they have a little museum The Typhoon. They might have more information there about the crash at Volkel.
     
  9. dmsims

    dmsims New Member

    While researching my late father's (Wg Cdr G N Sims DFC) history - he flew the same mission, I unearthed the very sad story:

    Sgt. Harry Lorkin , the pilot, his words: “Bridges were notoriously difficult to destroy. We certainly damaged them but they were such vital supply links that they were repaired virtually overnight. The road/rail bridge across the river Maas at Venlo was our worst nightmare. Bridges were very heavily defended by 88 millimetre anti-aircraft guns (Flak) which could fire more than 15 rounds per minute. Although Germany was not so advanced as us with radar, their optical gun-laying was superb.

    By this time, the squadron had moved from its British base at Hartford Bridge to an airfield at Vitry-en-Artois in northern France. The airfield had little in the way of facilities; our billets were roughly-made wooden huts. However our crew was by now a really close-nit unit happy in its own company. Our squadron, by the time we joined it, never had any close encounters with enemy aircraft. The Germans seemed content to leave it to their anti-aircraft guns which were only too effective. By that time the German Luftwaffe was a shadow of its former self and they seemed to be devoting all their remaining strength against the heavy bombers - Lancasters and Fortresses. There were occasions when fighters were put up against our attacks but happily for us they were always directed against other formations. Lack of fighter opposition was a blessing because our type of attack was always very vulnerable to enemy fighters.

    We flew in tight formations of six aircraft, three in one “V” and three more close in behind them. This produced a ‘carpet’ of bomb-bursts. The leading aircraft had one gunner who was the 'master gunner’ and his task in the event of an attack was to direct all the formations guns by radio so that - in theory - the incoming enemy would be met by a mass of bullets. So, Bob and Tom spent all their time over enemy territory searching the sky for signs of opposition. Venlo became a target for the first time on September 28th when we attacked it twice on the same day. On the second raid our aircraft’s hydraulic system was put out of action so that we had to use emergency methods for lowering the undercarriage and operating the brakes on landing.

    On the 4th November 1944 we went to Venlo in the morning but brought our bombs back because heavy cloud obscured the target. This did not prevent encountering some uncomfortably accurate radar-directed anti-aircraft fire. We were briefed to return to Venlo in the afternoon when the cloud would have dispersed. Over the target the cloud had indeed cleared away so that we had a good view of the target and the ground gunners had a good view of us. Just as we were leaving the target area, having dropped our bombs, we received a large piece of flak in the oil-cooler which caused us to lose all the oil in our starboard engine in just a few seconds. The oil, as well as lubricating the engine also operated the change of pitch of the airscrew. Normally when an engine is damaged the pilot ‘feathers’ the propeller, that is he turns the blades at right angles so that the movement through the air does not cause them to ‘windmill’. But with no oil in the system the blades of the airscrew turned itself into the ‘fully fine’ position which meant it ‘windmilled’ very fast indeed. With no oil for lubrication, the engine started tearing itself to pieces becoming white hot in the process. The noise it produced as almost unbearable.

    At this stage I warned the crew to ‘stand by to jump’. This would mean that they should vacate the turrets, clip on their parachutes and jettison the lower door then await further instructions. A problem with the Mitchell was that there was no real physical contact between the air gunners at the rear and the pilot. There was a very narrow gap between the top of the bomb bay and the fuselage but we could not even see each other. Thus it was essential that we all kept plugged in to the inter-com until the last minute.

    The navigator/bomb-aimer was rather better off having a tunnel over the nose-wheel compartment to move between his position in the nose and his seat alongside the pilot. Sadly, for some unaccountable reason, Bob and his colleague removed their helmets and so could not hear a voice from the ground telling us what course to steer to reach an airfield. Norman shouted “I can see it” and a few seconds later he pointed and said “There it is”. In those few seconds he had left his position in the nose compartment, negotiated the tunnel and sat himself next to me.

    The airfield was quite close so that we had to descend very steeply because we were going to get only one chance of landing. The increase in speed caused by the steep descent caused the damaged engine noise to become even worse. In the rear compartment, with the floor hatch open and no ear protection from helmets, the noise must have been unbelievable. I selected ‘under-carriage down’ but only one leg emerged, so the hydraulics had also been damaged. Fortunately the only leg to lower was on the side of the good engine. Not that it made any difference, everything collapsed as soon as we touched the runway and the aircraft slid along on its belly causing such an array of sparking metal that I thought we would catch fire.

    In the event everything went blissfully silent and I pushed Norman out through the roof escape hatch and followed him hastily. We stood there for a moment bathed in a feeling of sheer elation and the desire to find the owner of that saving voice to thank him. We walked to the rear intending to help the two lads out and our elation turned to puzzlement. Where were they? Two helmets there and parachutes gone. Before we had a chance to speculate I was approached by a senior officer who seemed more concerned with the fact that we had dropped a wreck on to his runway when a group of fighters were waiting to take off.

    Meantime Norman was led away by another person. Little did I realise then that he was being taken to identify two bodies which had landed on the end of the runway; they had jumped too late for their ‘chutes to open. No one knows what prompted them to jump when we were so near to the ground. Perhaps the terrible noise prevented any logical thought. I have often agonised over whether I, as the pilot, should have been more insistent about parachute drill but at that age we were invulnerable, any problems would happen to the other guys. The wartime air force had no time for sentiment. We had to wait a couple of days at that base which we learnt was Volkel, a former Luftwaffe airfield. On returning to Vitry, the C.O. made it plain that he would contact their families. We were sent on an two-day ‘errand’ to the UK and by the 11th November we were operating again with two new gunners and by the 19th we were back over Venlo when the flak was so accurate that our formation leader’s aircraft suffered a direct hit and exploded. I suppose that was the way in wartime. Rather like the way an unseated rider is urged to get back on a horse as soon as possible. No time was allowed for grieving”.
     
    alieneyes, ecalpald, ozzy16 and 3 others like this.
  10. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Just for completeness, the CWGC records for both Flint and Smith now correctly record them as 226 Squadron.
    Perhaps Admin might amend the thread title in due course, should anyone else try to find things?
     

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