"22 Pattern "Tunics" " on Ebay as mentioned on GWF

As some of you who know me know, one thing I hate is obvious misinformation... I notice that there are several threads on the GWF at the moment harping on about "WW1 tunics" seen on ebay actually being "22 pattern tunics".

Can someone please mention that there is no such thing as a "22 pattern tunic"! What they are referring to are 1902 pattern SD Jackets in their 5th modification. Though this modification did, indeed take place in 1922, they are still referred to as SD Jackets (note- jacket, not tunic!) of the 1902 pattern. If "22 pattern" becomes the accepted norm, then surely we must also have to refer to other jackets as the "1902 pattern", the "1904 pattern", the "1907 pattern", the "1914 pattern" and the "1918 pattern" which isn't inclusive of the simplified SD jacket (should we begin to refer to them as the "1915 pattern" and the "1941 pattern"?:p).

Picky, I know, but it's just one of them annoying little niggles that irritates me when they go unchecked.

Rant over!

Dave.

 

Fancy starting a thread explain each modification ?


I could do I suppose, but where would I put it? (the subject covers pre-war, WW2 and postwar!).

What I will do, though, is roughly describe the "events" here...



1902 - AO10 , 40 and 251 formalize the new issue jacket which is described as "loose fitting, with a turned down "rolled" collar. Rifle patches on the shoulders, patch pockets on the breast, side pockets let into the skirts below the waist and with plain, removeable shoulder straps".

1904 - (1st modification) - the removeable shoulder straps were replaced with permanent straps made of twisted cord.

1907 - (2nd modification) - the twisted cord shoulders were replaced with sewn down shoulder straps. This is the jacket that Britain went to war in 1914 wearing.

1914/1915- (3rd modification) - externally identical to the previous style jacket, but underwent changes to the upper pocket lining.

1918 - (4th modification) - lining changes (some were of khaki/green cotton as in post-war jackets (previously they had been white cotten/linen) and can have neck linings) and removal of the arm hole reinforcing stitch. These are invariably mistaken for "altered" post-war jackets, though they tend to still have the "loose" fit of wartime jackets.

1922 - (5th modification) - all linings and facings changed to khaki cotton, the "double dart" (pleats) on each side of the collar changed to just one. No reinforcing stitch at the arm hole and a tailoring seam added to the front between the upper patch pocket and the skirt pocket.The collar was also made higher. This jacket was no longer "loose" fitting, but was tailored into a smart fitting garment which could also be used for dress occasions (proportions around the chest and back were reduced, the skirts were elongated and the upper arm was narrowed). This modification of the 1902 SD jacket soldiered on into the 1960's (at least).
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The above were the "mainstay" jackets... below are the oddball "simplified" (sometimes referred to as "utility") 1902 SD Jackets...

1914 - due to the extreme demand for uniforms, contracts were drawn up in the early Autumn of 1914 for a simplified 1902 pattern jacket. This was to ease and speed up manufacture. basically, they were a standard 1907 version of the jacket, but with certain details eliminated - the rifle patches went, as did the pleats on the (slightly enlarged) breast pockets. The pieces of cloth used to make the back of the jacket were reduced from 5 to just 3. Other than that, ie lining wise, etc, they were the same as the 1907 variation.
While these jackets were being produced, pre-war manufacturers continued producing the un-simplified versions as before and the production of the simplified jacket ceased in 1915 when all manufacturers reverted to the standard pattern. However, such quantities of these simplified jackets were made that issue of them continued throughout the war.

1941 -Though BD had become the "norm" by now, SD was still issued to and worn by certain troops. In 1941 another simplified version of the SD was introduced (this time the reason was, in the main, to reduce manufacturing costs and materials). This, though less simplified than the WW1 version, omitted the pocket pleats and the tailoring seam but still retained the rifle patches. Sometimes they can be encountered with composite buttons. Manufacture of this style continued throughout the war, but ceased soon after conclusion by most manufacturers (I say "most" because I'm sure I've seen one dated 1961!).

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1945 - The 1902 SD Jacket of the 5th modification variation (officially by now the "Jacket, Service Dress, O.P." (old pattern)) was officially re-introduced (though it never left!) into the British Army in March 1945 for bandsmen and several other callings. It continued to soldier on, pretty much unchanged, for at least another 20 years.

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Will that do?:p

Dave

 

Perfect.....some photos would be nice

Pity that I sold my 1914/15 and 1918 variants a while back when I decided to give up collecting "big" things!

However, from ebay, here's the 1941 variant of the utility jacket (one of those described as , and used as a reference for a "1922 pattern tunic" elsewhere)...

(Oh, yes, I almost forgot - the paper labels went out with the 1918 variant. All stitched and printed cotton from then on)

 

Though with a Canadian leaning, this link gives a pretty good description with photos...British Other Ranks five-button Service Dress Jacket

Dave

 

this link gives a pretty good description with photos


Though this one is by far the best link... The WW1 UK Service Dress

 

Perfect.....some photos would be nice.
I know Rich P is a fan of SD so maybe he can add something?

Oh, I'm already well out of my depth here. I do feel that what I would refer to as "pre-war" Service Dress is an extremely smart uniform and that 9 times out of 10, BD makes the wearer look like a sack of shit tied round the middle.

Dave, do you have a preferred 'shorthand' for the '5th modification' thing that we can use without offending the serious student ?:p

By the way Dave, can you tell me anything about my grandfather's WO1 SD ? Would it have been private purchase ? - See this old thread :- http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/unit-history/10480-r-s-m-2nd-battalion-northamptonshire-regt.html It has the stand-up collar of the OR jacket but has officer-style pocket flaps.

 

By the way Dave, can you tell me anything about my grandfather's WO1 SD ? Would it have been private purchase ? - See this old thread :- http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/unit-history/10480-r-s-m-2nd-battalion-northamptonshire-regt.html It has the stand-up collar of the OR jacket but has officer-style pocket flaps.



Definately private purchase and probably made by one of the officer's outfitters. WO's SD jackets were invariably like this and were officer's quality but with a closed collar.

As for your other question - post-greatwar SD jacket would do (post greatwar 1902 SD maybe? Perhaps even 1922 modified SD Jacket?) I don't know , but anything is better than "1922 Pattern SD Tunic"!!!!!

Dave

 

Perhaps even 1922 modified SD Jacket?) I don't know , but anything is better than "1922 Pattern SD Tunic"!!!!!

Dave

I think that I can live with '1922 modified SD'

...and here is another relative in SD for Dave to identify precisely :-



This is my Great Grandfather on my maternal Grandmother's side. He was a pre-Great War regular who transferred in the 1900s from the R.G.A. to the Gloucesterhire Regiment. I suspect because he wanted to stay in Portland rather than go back overseas.

Note to mods (Dave started this WW1 stuff, not me)

 

...and here is another relative in SD for Dave to identify precisely :



Glosters - 2nd or 3rd modification SD (though, because of the sharpness of the collar (not a give away - this can be encountered on either), I'd go for 3rd mod.)

Note to mods (Dave started this WW1 stuff, not me:biggrin


No I didn't! I was talking inter-war to WW2 (and beyond) originally! (Let's blame Owen for stirring this thread up!)

Dave

 

Blame me, I don't care.
.

Usually do, Owen!

Great thread though.


Yeah, not bad considering it just started with me having a bitch about something that shouldn't really matter all that much! (but I think it does!!!:p)

Dave.

 

something that shouldn't really matter all that much! (but I think it does!!!:p)

Dave.

Yeah, we noticed that !

This is what Chambers' has to say:-

"Pedant - noun, derog someone who is over-concerned with correctness of detail, especially in academic matters."

Rich (Fully paid-up Rivet-Counter, Numbers-Nerd and all-round obsessive personality)

 

Pedant? Moi?

Can't be - I couldn't care less if Lance Corporal or Staff Sergeant was a "rank" or an "appointment", so I can't be!!:p

Dave