21st century Dambusters (for all discussion on the remake)

You cannot change HISTORY.

The same word was also the code word to be used when any of the dams targeted were breached.

This means that they also change this historical fact also.

Regards
Tom

 

Sometimes I wish threads wouldn't be merged. I thought the news about Gibson's dog's name would be left on it's own as it's important in it's own right.

 

But then we'd get more or less the same conversations Craig as folks inevitably drift off over the same charted waters.

Mate, my general 'There's a new film in the offing' thread from 5 years back turned to the Nigger situation by the first response.
Think we probably have to face facts, the subjects are always gonna be intertwined...

Has Fry done any major screenplays before?
Hmmm, not really:
Stephen Fry - IMDb
He's chosen a hell of a Big screen dramatic debut...

I do understand why but both Peter and Tom have missed what was already posted the day before by the looks of it.

 

I firmly do not believe that we should be looking at that particular aspect of the film in too much detail, we are in danger of turning a rabidly successful forum into a politically correct forum, which I do not wish to see. What was a common name, is not now, so why not leave it at that?

 

At the end of the day I agree with others that as long as the film is realistic it is a good way of getting younger people introduced to the Historical facts of WW2 and Bomber Command in particular.

Like it or not, Political Correctness is with us permanently.

Regards
Tom

 

The same word was also the code word to be used when any of the dams targeted were breached.


I understand this little fella is hoping to be cast to play the part of the dawg.

Link

 

Like it or not, Political Correctness is with us permanently.

Regards
Tom
Negative!

 

Apologies if this has been posted on here already but i've just found out that there is going to be a movie re-make of the classic 'Dam Busters' but to make it a bit PC for the American market they've had to change the dogs name from 'Nigger' to 'Digger' !!!:p

 

Apologies if this has been posted on here already but i've just found out that there is going to be a movie re-make of the classic 'Dam Busters' but to make it a bit PC for the American market they've had to change the dogs name from 'Nigger' to 'Digger' !!!:p
why not use B-17's as well

 

Apologies if this has been posted on here already but i've just found out that there is going to be a movie re-make of the classic 'Dam Busters' but to make it a bit PC for the American market they've had to change the dogs name from 'Nigger' to 'Digger' !!!:p


Aussies'll do anything to big up the Aussie contribution!

 

Aussies'll do anything to big up the Aussie contribution!

You are right!

12 Flyers on the raid and a "Digger" to boot.

They might be looking for a smaller Slouch Hat!:wink:

 

Why change it for the American market, and why change it at all. I'm really dissapointed that Mr Fry has taken this decision to change the facts (even though it's only one letter changed) just to cower down to the PC brigade. There are plenty of films (American!!) that use the "Nigger" word for the racial term it was used for. Three come to mind, Quentin Tarantino's "Jackie Brown" apparently uses it 38 times, Beverly Hills Cop, where not only it's used as a racial term, but also as comedy!! also In The Heat of the Night, where it's used quite frequently, film directors have used the word with the excuse of "Realism" and have been allowed to get away with it. We also have Elvis Costello's "Olivers Army" which contains the word with a racial meaning, but still gets airplay.
When "Nigger" was used as a codeword in 1943, there was nothing racially connected with it. It was the name of Gibsons poor old dog. Too many gutless people in this world today, dissapearing up their own backsides.

 

You are right!

12 Flyers on the raid and a "Digger" to boot.

They might be looking for a smaller Slouch Hat!:wink:

And how about Mel Gibson to play 'Bruce' Gibson? Hope you'll be adding 'Diggers' memorial to your list now B)

 

And how about Mel Gibson to play 'Bruce' Gibson? Hope you'll be adding 'Diggers' memorial to your list now B)

Mel is american - he is likely to star!

Which memorial list?

 

Mel is american - he is likely to star!

Which memorial list?

I thought he was Australian but on checking I see he's actualy described as an Australian-American, Australian Grand Parent, born in USA brought up in Sydney and now has dual Irish/American citizenship so I guess you can claim or disown him according to taste.

 

Why change it for the American market, and why change it at all. I'm really dissapointed that Mr Fry has taken this decision to change the facts (even though it's only one letter changed) just to cower down to the PC brigade. There are plenty of films (American!!) that use the "Nigger" word for the racial term it was used for. Three come to mind, Quentin Tarantino's "Jackie Brown" apparently uses it 38 times, Beverly Hills Cop, where not only it's used as a racial term, but also as comedy!! also In The Heat of the Night, where it's used quite frequently, film directors have used the word with the excuse of "Realism" and have been allowed to get away with it. We also have Elvis Costello's "Olivers Army" which contains the word with a racial meaning, but still gets airplay.
When "Nigger" was used as a codeword in 1943, there was nothing racially connected with it. It was the name of Gibsons poor old dog. Too many gutless people in this world today, dissapearing up their own backsides.
Alan, there might not have been a direct connection. However, from this report of a parliamentary exchange in February 1941, I think you will have to agree that the word was considered offensive at the time, notwithstanding its use as part of the fabric and leather colour "nigger brown".

I did a search on the word in The Times between 1940 and 1950, restricting it to News and Advertisements, simply because of the dyestuff. There were 509 hits, which break down as follows.

Advertising: 473
News: 37 - of which the vast majority (21) were reports on the use of dyestuffs or "shopping summaries".

The others:

"Gay butterflies on the Bramble" (a whole other can of worms!)

A 1941 report from "A Special Correspondent on the German Frontier" regarding German suppression of what they called "American nigger music" (ie jazz).

Report of the sinking of a merchant ship - survivors covered in oil described as "brown as a nigger".

An award given by the NCDL to a Bedlington terrier called Nigger for his excellent skills at ratting: 960 kills in five months earned him £10 and a commemorative collar! Given that Bedlingtons are brown, I think we can see where that name came from.

A report from America comparing price controls to "the nigger on the safety valve of one of the old Mississippi steamers".

Two reports of a 1944 court case involving the West Indies cricketer Learie Constantine in which it was specifically stated that the word nigger had not been used to him, "because it would have been offensive": as far as I can make out, Constantine didn't even suggest it had! Of interest is the fact that Constantine alleged he had been refused lodging at a hotel - the hotel's case was that they had suggested he would be more comfortable at another of their establishments as they had many American and colonial officers [my italics] in residence at the one he had originally booked. He lost the case.

Herbert Morrison suggesting in 1948 that production could not be driven up by "nigger-driving methods".

A vague reference in a 1948 report on Italian politics to support dwindling like the "ten little niggers".

A similar 1950 reference to "ten little niggers" regarding the shutdown of Communist newspapers in West Germany.

Lord Cherwell reacting in 1948 to the goverment's overseas spending plans which he called "the nigger in the woodpile".

Later that year, a Conservative MP also called Herbert Morrison "the nigger in the woodpile".

A 1950 report quoting a Labour politician that Britain was not "the nigger in the woodpile" regarding European unity. This was in connection with discussions of a federal government for Europe

A report of the 1950 Royal Horticultural Society Show, where a crocus variety called "Nigger Boy" won a prize.

A report of a greyhound racing betting swindle which involved a dog called White Nigger.

 

Vitesse,
I'm not implying that at the time it was not racist (as in a timeline) i'm saying that the use of the word for the Dams operation had no raciism behind it, it was purely named after the dog. With the amount of use in films, old and new, where it's actually used with racist meaning, i just cannot see why it should be shelved on this occasion. The most number of times it could be used within the film is twice, once at the briefing, and once at the breaking of the Dam. Quite a long way from the 38 times in Jackie Brown.

 

I just cannot see why it should be shelved on this occasion.

Because the resulting controversy would be wildly out of proportion to whatever marginal benefit there would be to retaining it?

Look, here's the thing. I've never yet seen anyone who complains about this provide a reason why it matters that the name is going to be changed.

Just saying 'because it's a fact!' over and over again is assertion, not argument. It's the nature of historical drama to change, ellide, and simplify facts. That's a feature, not a bug; the logic of successful fiction demands it. A truly 'authentic' drama that omitted or altered nothing would be tedious beyond belief, and largely incomprehensible.

The issue not whether facts are changed - that's both inevitable and necessary. The issue whether the particular facts that are changed matter. No-one yet has ever to my knowledge explained why changing this particular word changes the moral truth of the Dambusters story in any important way at all.

Anyone want to make the attempt?

(Entries that include the words 'political correctness', 'PC Brigade', or any other tired Daily Mail-ism are automatically disqualified on the grounds of intellectual laziness.)

Best, Alan