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1st Lothians & Border Yeomanry

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by gerboise, Jan 28, 2009.

  1. gerboise

    gerboise L&BH Guru

    Hi all,

    I have been doing researches on the Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry for several years now. I do focus on 1st Lothians & Border Yeomanry.

    I have a question about the battledress blouse insignia as worn during the summer 44 in Normandy. Being part of 79th Armoured division by the rgiment, and, more generally, by the soldiers among the division: Divisional regulations stipulated that the RAC cloth titles should be worn. Officially the order to wear the Lothian and Border Yeomanry titles was given by November 44. But it may have been worn earlier, and even wonder if, on the field, the titles were worn or not.. I'm looking to any picture of a LBY OR or Officer during that period.
    Hope you'll be able to help me.

    Thanx a lot.
    phil
     
  2. gerboise

    gerboise L&BH Guru

    Got the answer yesterday:definitely RAC cloth badges until Nov.44
     
  3. Belinda40

    Belinda40 Junior Member

    Hi
    Have just doing research and happened to see you focus on the 1st Lothian & Border Yeomanry. I am looking for any info regarding Frank Lawlor and his unit who have spent some time in Limburg, South Holland. I do have a couple of photos if they would be of any help. Let me know if I am barking up the wrong tree here!
    Thanks
    Belinda
     
  4. Hi
    Have just doing research and happened to see you focus on the 1st Lothian & Border Yeomanry. I am looking for any info regarding Frank Lawlor and his unit who have spent some time in Limburg, South Holland. I do have a couple of photos if they would be of any help. Let me know if I am barking up the wrong tree here!
    Thanks
    Belinda


    Hello Belinda,

    Sorry for this late reply, I hadn't visited this post for some time.

    The only mention I could find of Frank Lawlor in the War Diary of 1st Lothians & Border Yeomanry for 1944 says that on 14 August 1944, 14220268 Tpr Frank Alfred Lawlor escaped unhurt from one of the 3 tanks of 1 Troop, 'C' Squadron which were hit and knocked out by German 88mm anti-tank guns near Rouvres in Normandy, during Operation TALLULAH (which was changed to Operation TRACTABLE) near Falaise.

    The 3 tanks were commanded by 2Lt Rolland, Sgt Stiles and Cpl Kirkwood respectively. The former and the latter tanks caught fire. 772577 Sgt Alfred James Wade Stiles was killed, 2nd Lt Archibald Harley Rolland 312857 was badly injured in the arm and leg, while 7920094 Cpl K. Kirkwood escaped unhurt. Four other men were killed, three more wounded, and three missing believed POW, one of whom escaped on 24 Aug.

    Sadly Tpr Frank Lawlor did not survive the war, as he was killed on 23 Jan 1945 in Heinsberg in Germany:

    wargravessittard.org

    I also could not find any mention of Limburg in the War Diary for 1944. It must have been in 1945 then.

    Please do post the photos as they might be of interest.

    PS: Belinda, I sent a PM to you
     
  5. CliffW

    CliffW Junior Member

    Hi everyone,

    I am the grandson of William Mitchinson (7905182) who served in the 1t Lothians & Border Yeomanry first as a Cpl and later as Sergeant in I believe the 'B' Sqd. I do know he received a 'Croix de Guerre with Palm' (Belgium) for his action at Knokke. I would love to find out more about B-Sqd. When I was a small boy i remember visiting some war museums in the Netherlands along the route he took from Normandy to Holland, including a visit to some of his comrades graves in various war cemeteries.
    Any help with more details and photo's would be hugely appreciated.

    Cliff W.
     
  6. chrisgrove

    chrisgrove Senior Member

    Hello Belinda,


    Sadly Tpr Frank Lawlor did not survive the war, as he was killed on 23 Jan 1945 in Heinsberg in Germany:



    Poor Frank Lawlor. He didn't get much further than Limburg as Heinsberg is not very far from Limburg across the german border.

    Chris
     
  7. Hi everyone,

    I am the grandson of William Mitchinson (7905182) who served in the 1t Lothians & Border Yeomanry first as a Cpl and later as Sergeant in I believe the 'B' Sqd. I do know he received a 'Croix de Guerre with Palm' (Belgium) for his action at Knokke. I would love to find out more about B-Sqd. When I was a small boy i remember visiting some war museums in the Netherlands along the route he took from Normandy to Holland, including a visit to some of his comrades graves in various war cemeteries.
    Any help with more details and photo's would be hugely appreciated.

    Cliff W.

    The recommendation for award is kept here:
    The National Archives WO 373/111/1118

    and the award was published here (8th from bottom in left column):
    SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 20 MARCH, 1947 page 1314


    B Sqn War Diary for September 1944 includes the following:

    "17 Sep
    Seven more Crabs arrived from 264SDS, plus one Sherman. We got four Crabs plus the Sherman and so are up to strength again.
    Tpr Cartwright fell off his tank and dislocated his shoulder, so we annexed Sgt Mitchinson (ex-3Tp), Cpl Edwards (ex-1Tp) and Tpr Cox J from 264SDS and this brings us up to men once more. The NCOs replace Sgt Longcroft, who is off to hospital for an operation, and Cpl Walker I R, who was wounded by shrapnel while bringing in the Ech; not serious but evacuated."

    3Tp was the troop which was chosen to be abolished in B Sqn when the new War Establishment of three troops of flails (instead of the original four) and no roller troop came into effect on 5 Aug 44, so we can assume that Sgt Mitchinson was with 3Tp before 5 Aug, then kept as reinforcement until 17 Sep, when he replaced Sgt Longcroft as Troop Sergeant for 4Tp. This seems confirmed by a report by Lt D.L. Melville OC 4Tp B Sqn about the attack on Geilenkirchen on Sat 18 Nov 44, listing the tank commanders in his tp as follows:

    Lt Melville (himself)
    Sgt Mitchinson
    Cpl Henderson
    Cpl Edwards W
    LCpl Noble A
     
  8. Peter Stern

    Peter Stern Junior Member

    Hi,
    I am new to this forum so please excuse me!
    I am the son of the late Bryan Stern who served with the 1st Lothians throughout WW2. The only information that I have is from the addresses that my mother put on her letters to him (which he kept and I now have). The address mainly used was 30 Armoured Brigade, Rear C squadron, 1 Lothians. I know from my mother's letters, that I have, that he landed in France in July 44. From these letters he was still there in Sept 44.
    I would love to know more about him and where he was in the war years.
    Many thanks to anyone who can help.
    Peter Stern
     
  9. Hi,
    I am new to this forum so please excuse me!


    Hello Peter,

    Welcome to this forum! Don't apologize, this is the right place for asking!

    I am the son of the late Bryan Stern who served with the 1st Lothians throughout WW2. The only information that I have is from the addresses that my mother put on her letters to him (which he kept and I now have). The address mainly used was 30 Armoured Brigade, Rear C squadron, 1 Lothians. I know from my mother's letters, that I have, that he landed in France in July 44. From these letters he was still there in Sept 44.
    I would love to know more about him and where he was in the war years.
    Many thanks to anyone who can help.
    Peter Stern

    Unfortunately there is no mention of your late father in 1 Lothians War Diary for 1944.

    You should be able to retrieve your father's service record. See:

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/service-records/

    and hopefully it will give you some more detailed information about your father's postings.

    Do you have any photographs or documents kept by your father during his time with 1 Lothians?

    Sorry I can't be of more help,

    Michel
     
  10. Peter Stern

    Peter Stern Junior Member

    Hi Michel,
    Many thanks for your quick reply. Unfortunately I have drawn a blank on the WW2 service records link but have been in touch with Army Personnel Centre at Glasgow who are sending the necessary forms for his service records.
    I know that he passed his Officer Cadet Training and gained his commission on 19 Oct 40, service number 153360, and joined the North Staffordshire Regiment. I have a feeling that he was with the 6th Battalion. However all mail in June to Sept 1944 were sent to 1 Lothian.
    Again many thanks for your interest.
    Peter Stern
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Unfortunately there is no mention of your late father in 1 Lothians War Diary for 1944.


    Isn't he listed in the Officers Field Returns within the diary?
     
  12. Isn't he listed in the Officers Field Returns within the diary?

    Good idea, unfortunately I only have the 1 Lothians Field Return of Officers for Week ending 28 Oct 44, and there is no one by the name of Stern in that list.

    Perhaps he had already left the Regt by that date, since apparently the address at 1 Lothians was used only until September 1944?

    Has anyone got any Field Return for July to September 1944?

    Michel
     
  13. James McLuckie

    James McLuckie Junior Member

    New to the forum but hope it will be helpful in tracing my late father's movements with 1L&BY after D Day. Where can I get access to a Regimental War Diary or ask questions about the regiments movements/battles?
    James McLuckie
     
  14. James McLuckie

    James McLuckie Junior Member

    Ref my last post, I am particularly keen to find which Sqn my father James McLuckie was in as the sqns were allocated piecemeal to support different engagements. He was a Cpl/Sgt flail tank commander and I have a formal troop photograph of him in 5 Troop taken presumably prior to the invasion.
    I have a copy of the Story of 79 Armd Div book written in 1945 which details many of the actions the sqns took part in.
    Questions - which sqn was 5tp in? Was he still in 5 Tp?
    Grateful for any help as I plan to tour the battlefields.
    James McLuckie
     
  15. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    BC Stern 2nd Lt Regular army emergency commission dated 19/10/40 - North Staffordshire Regt (he is listed as Royal Armoured Corp)- January 1942 Army List:


    Army list



    1st and 2nd Lothian and Border Yeomanry. Officers list - Army List July 1944:


    Army list





    North Staffordshire List July 1944:


    Army list
     
  16. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Ref my last post, I am particularly keen to find which Sqn my father James McLuckie was in as the sqns were allocated piecemeal to support different engagements. He was a Cpl/Sgt flail tank commander and I have a formal troop photograph of him in 5 Troop taken presumably prior to the invasion.
    I have a copy of the Story of 79 Armd Div book written in 1945 which details many of the actions the sqns took part in.
    Questions - which sqn was 5tp in? Was he still in 5 Tp?
    Grateful for any help as I plan to tour the battlefields.
    James McLuckie

    Hello James,

    Do you happen to have any photos of your father's tank? From the the information I have it seems that A, B and C Squadrons all numbered their troops 1 - 5, however if you have a tank name or perhaps even a "T" census number it may be easier to trace.

    cheers

    Kevin
     
  17. He was a Cpl/Sgt flail tank commander and I have a formal troop photograph of him in 5 Troop taken presumably prior to the invasion.
    (...)
    Questions - which sqn was 5tp in? Was he still in 5 Tp?

    Hello James,

    Like Kevin says, there was one No.5 Troop in each of the three Squadrons of a Flail Regiment, at least initially. This No.5 Troop was the "Pilot" or "Roller" troop, composed of four Roller tanks. A Roller tank was a standard Sherman V (US designation: M4A4) except that it had special "pads" welded on its hull sides with bolts on which to attach the CIRD (Canadian Indestructible Roller Device).

    When approaching a suspected mined area, the Roller tank would lead the way ahead of a Flail troop and as soon as the CIRD detonated a mine, the Roller would withdraw and the Flails would take over clearance of the minefield.

    There is however no evidence that any CIRD was ever used on the continent, and on 5 Aug 44 the organisation (War Establishment) changed, whereby the Roller Troop as well as one of the four Flail Troops were abolished, the surnumerary Roller and Flail tanks and their crews remaining in the unit as reinforcements for the remaining Troops. Therefore your father certainly did not remain in 5 Troop after 5 Aug 44, but was assigned to supporting the other troops if still with a Roller tank (without the CIRD) as a Gun tank, or as a Flail tank commander in one of the remaining three troops in his squadron, even possibly in another squadron.

    Here is one of 1 Lothians 'B' Squadron's Roller tanks (IWM B9821) on 31 Aug 44, therefore after the reorganisation (photo cropped from IWM B9821, courtesy of Mark Mackenzie in this forum thread) :

    Allied WWII AFV Discussion Group: Looking for pics of British 29 Armd Bde Shermans circa Normandy
    [​IMG]


    More on Roller tanks here:
    Sherman Register - CIRD

    As Kevin suggests, any photo or piece of information showing troop leader or crewmembers, tank number or name might help us find out your father's squadron and perhaps find out in which actions he was involved.

    Michel
     
  18. Alanst500

    Alanst500 Senior Member

  19. James McLuckie

    James McLuckie Junior Member

    Thanks Kevin and Michel
    I don't have any photos or refs for a tank except that my brother remembers my
    father showing him a photo of a tank in The Story of 79 Div and saying that he was the guy sitting on top of the turret. I have a copy of the book and the only photo it could be is one of an A Sqn gun tank (no flail) at Domburg in the Schelde estuary. The tank has '5 BRAMBLE' painted on the front and I believe the actual tank is still on the seafront at Domburg as a monument. Your info on the switch to gun tanks could well be a fit.
    It certainly looks like my Dad but I'm trying not to put 2 and 2 together and get 5!
    I've also looked more closely at his service record and he was assigned to A Sqn in Dec 1943 so hopefully I am getting closer.
    The service record is none too clear - a combination of poor photocopying and a complicated career ( at one point he appears to have left N Africa after the defeat of Rommel and embarked for, quote, 'an undisclosed destination' before turning up in 1L&BY 3 months later).
    I also know he stayed with the Regt till the end of the war, so went through France, Holland and Germany. I'm ex Army myself and can't believe I knew nothing of this when I was stationed variously in Rheindahlen, Paderborn and Verden.
    Hoping to get enough evidence to do a tour.
    Many thanks for your interest and help.

    James McLuckie
     
  20. Thanks Kevin and Michel
    I don't have any photos or refs for a tank except that my brother remembers my father showing him a photo of a tank in The Story of 79 Div and saying that he was the guy sitting on top of the turret. I have a copy of the book and the only photo it could be is one of an A Sqn gun tank (no flail) at Domburg in the Schelde estuary. The tank has '5 BRAMBLE' painted on the front and I believe the actual tank is still on the seafront at Domburg as a monument. Your info on the switch to gun tanks could well be a fit.
    It certainly looks like my Dad but I'm trying not to put 2 and 2 together and get 5!

    This is the photo on page 174 of 'The Story of 79th Armoured Division', captioned "'A' SQN LOTHIANS TANK AT DOMBURG":
    No.10 Gun tank '5 BRAMBLE' - front right - MPG Lothians in Domburg b.jpg
    No.10 Gun tank '5 BRAMBLE'; - front right - MPG Lothians in Domburg b

    This is Sherman V gun tank Turret No.10 of SHQ 'A' Sqn, commanded by Maj (temp) Duncan Robert Riach Pocock (109422) who was the Squadron OC. I do not have any names for the other members of the crew, and could unfortunately not find any mention of anybody by the name of McLuckie in the various documents I have.

    Incidentally, this is not the tank used as a monument at Westkapelle, which is actually a Crab with its jib removed. It has been given an incorrect turret number '5', resulting from a common misinterpretation of the marking '5 BRAMBLE' seen on several photographs.

    '5 BRAMBLE' was not the turret number and name of the tank, but the Landing Craft Index Number (LTIN) '5' followed with the Lane code name 'BRAMBLE'. All tanks assigned to one Lane were carried in the same LCT, and therefore carried the same marking, in this case '5 BRAMBLE', and LTIN, Lane name and LCT Pennant are equivalent. '5 BRAMBLE' was HMS LCT Mark IV 737.

    Incidentally, the Crab used as a monument did not even land from '5 BRAMBLE', but from '6 CHERRY' (LCT 650)...

    Here's another photo of the same tank, actually a film still from footage used to make a feature film which can be viewed here (see at 04:41, also at 04:46):
    Trugkieke 40-45 afl. 1 januari - Commando's vallen Walcheren aan - YouTube

    It shows No.10 replenishing ammo in (presumably) Westkapelle or Domburg, but the crew is facing away from the camera, or when facing it, a film logo masks their face!

    Bramble79thArmdDiv.jpg
    Bramble79thArmdDiv

    A couple of screen grabs showing crew members:

    CSAW 04.44 - No.10 reammo.jpg
    CSAW 04.44 - No.10 reammo

    CSAW - 04.57 - No.10 adv in street.jpg
    CSAW - 04.57 - No.10 adv in street

    James, could you perhaps post a high resolution scan of the formal troop photograph of your father in 5 Troop that you mentioned? This might help identifying him or other 5 Troop personnel on other photos.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018

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