1947 Camp List -

Discussion in 'UK PoW Camps' started by Malcolm56, Oct 22, 2019.

  1. Malcolm56

    Malcolm56 Member

    The Camp List is National Archive Reference FO 1120/182

    It was graded UNCLASSIFIED. It was used by Wilton Park. It has clearly been used as a ‘working document’ with some camp names crossed out, (highlighted in blue in the list). I expect that was done as camps were being closed during 1947. I would imagine Wilton were using it as their contact list to send out course information and to contact camps to see if they had suitable pows for future courses.

    The date on page 1 – 20th Feb 47 – I think this would be the date that the PWIB created the list. A rubber stamp records that it was received on 8 Mar 1947, presumably by Wilton Park on that date.

    The lists are in 3-and-a-bit sections:

    Pages 1 to 27 ‘Location list... starts at Camp 2 as Camp 1 Grizedale, had closed. The different types of camp were:

    Types Total W.E. Commandant Rank
    B.C.Base Camp 15 V/202/4 Lieutenant Colonel
    G.W.C.German Working Camp 160 V/1452/2 V/1453/2 Lt.Col or Major
    Hospital/Prisoner of War Hospital 6 V111/356/3 or V/1395/2 or V/1416/1 Major
    P.C. Prison Camp (? - not sure) 1 V/202/4 Blank
    S.C. Special Camp 2 V/202/4 or V/1507/2 1 Lt.Col, 1 Major
    Total 184

    Does anyone know what the War Establishment complements were for each code on that date? I have some figures for other dates, but they kept changing them!

    I am not sure if any use can be made of the telegraphic address and telephone number?

    Pages 28 – 30 ‘Group Pioneer Corps’. This section lists the Pioneer Corps working in pow camps, with their address, telephone number and which German Working Companies they were responsible for.

    Pages 31 – 42 ‘P.W. Working Companies’. Although this is a continuation of the camp list, they were described as ‘Working Companies’. There are no commandant names listed, instead the Pioneer Corps Group number is stated. Different War Establishment codes are also used: V/1270/3, V1270/4 and V/1456/2.

    There are some duplicated names here, though all numbers remained unique:
    612 and653 – Old Windmills Camp – exactly the same details including telephone number.
    662 and 664 – Stadium Camp – as above.
    Were these separate camps – or camps in the process of changing status – or, especially in the second case with entries next to each other, typing errors?

    Page 43 no title. This page has just 5 entries in similar format to the first section.
    - Hospital at Halston Hall – “Hospital Center 804 was the name of the cluster of five U.S. military hospital sites in the Shropshire/Flintshire area during World War 2: Penley, Llanerch Panna, Oteley Deer Park, Iscoyd Park (a hospital that also treated German Prisoners of War from September 1944 until February 1945) and Halston Hall. “ – from advertisement of book about Hospital Center 804. Presumably Halston was also used for pows at some time in 1947.
    - Talgarth Military Hospital – this was listed as Camp 234 in other lists.
    - Labout Holding Unit – at Kings Cliffe Camp 702.
    - Internment Camp at Beltane School. At the end of the war a number of Nazi civilians were held here, including Otto Dietrich, Hitler’s former press chief. From August to October 1945 German medical experts were interrogated here.
    - The London District Cage, contact details.

    The important thing about the document is that it is OF THE TIME, not a compiled list made later which created apparent duplication of numbers.

    I would really like to see other contemporary lists. I have one from 1945 which was listed for the ICRC.

    Best wishes - Malcolm Sanders
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. Pete Wood

    Pete Wood Member

    Malcolm, I have 653 and 632 (not 612) as both being Old Windmills Camp. They were two separate camps, next door to each other (and an extension of the original camp, possibly housing different nationalities at the same time - German AND Italian?).

    The Grid for 653 is 51°52'51.60"N 1° 7'1.10"W (the area is given as Bicester)

    The Grid for 632 is 51°52'50.31"N 1° 6'57.75"W (the area is given as Graven Hill)

    I also have Camp 33 at 51°52'52.64"N 1° 6'57.02"W (the area is given as Arncot)

    As you know, finding dates when camps were renumbered is tricky - and too many people have muddied the water by amalgamating lists. I think studying PoW mail is the answer......

    This camp(s) was part of a group of camps, I believe, known as Bolero Camp - to the west of Old Windmills Camp. I have Camp 553 (on four different sites), Camp 657 (also known as shed D35), and Camp 1011 (aka Shed D30).

    Bicester.jpg
     
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  3. Pete Wood

    Pete Wood Member

    Stadium Camp consisted of three camps - again, I believe, extensions but separate.

    I have 631, 662 and 664 all very close together.

    Catterick.jpg
     
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  4. Pete Wood

    Pete Wood Member

    My pins are as close to the centre of the camp as I could make them, using maps or aerial photos.
     
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  5. Pete Wood

    Pete Wood Member

    Much of the confusion has, I think, been caused by lists compiled by the Red Cross. I think the IRC was (rightly) confused with the renumbering that was going on, at different times during the war. Hopefully, a study of PoW mail can sort this out....?
     
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  6. Malcolm56

    Malcolm56 Member

    Yes my mistake - for 612 read 632 - (it is correct in the listing as 632).

    + on Martin Richards' site - FO 1120/183 List of Camps 1947 - he has put images of the original document where you can see all the crossing outs.

    Best wishes - Malcolm
     
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  7. Osborne2

    Osborne2 Well-Known Member

    Martin's site says FO 1120/183, Malcolm your spreadsheet says 182. I think that your title Malcolm is correct as Martin's photograph in his site post of the TNA file cover does show FO 1120/182. I do thank you all, Malcolm, Martin and Peter for these posts. In very small return, Camp 180 existed at Marbury until August 1946. Camp Commandants were Lt Col P V A Reid, October 24 1944 - July? 1945, Lt Colonel H.D. Scowcroft. July 1945 - August 1946 FO 939/336.(EDIT. Now became Camp 189 ) Lt Col C L Fisher August 1946- April 1947. Lt Colonel J F Norton April 7 1947 until the camp closed ? June ? 1948. FO 939/177
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  8. Osborne2

    Osborne2 Well-Known Member

  9. Martin Richards

    Martin Richards Active Member


    Windmills is still there: PoW Camp 632 Old Windmills Camp Bicester

    The Camps like Peter has set are next to each other the Camp on the East is there still with some original buildings.

    The main surving Camp is the one to the east the one on the west can just been seen though the gates;
    [​IMG]


    Now days its is scrap yard caravan sales and cafe - each part has some thing to be seen the best of which being the remains of the statute fountain that the Italins Built.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Martin Richards

    Martin Richards Active Member


    My number came fron the National Archive list from a number of search's; of couse though i may have made a typing mistake AND the information with any thing to do needs a more than one source to confirm
     
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  11. Osborne2

    Osborne2 Well-Known Member

    Agreed Martin on the need for corroborating evidence. I have this for the four named officers for 180/189 over and above the references given.

    EDIT. Just noticed my own mistake in #7. Camp180 existed in Cheshire until August 1946 until Camp 189 moved there from Dunham Park up the road in that month. 189 was at Marbury until possibly June 1948. Dunham Park became a 189 hostel but was rapidly run down and closed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019

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