My father was with 222 squadron as a pilot flying Spitfires, Typhoons and Tempests. I have many photos, Log books, flying helmet etc and have started to put a factual account together of his RAF years to share with the rest of my family Can someone help please as to why he has a service number on letters etc and a different number on his dog tags?
Hello Mike welcome put his name and numbers on here and forum members will assist further do you have his service records Get a copy of military service records regards Clive
Hi, Welcome to the forum. Shot in the dark....he would have a service number as an enlisted man - AC2 through to Sgt etc - but would be allocated a different (new) service number if he was granted a Commision as an officer - Pilot Officer, Flight Lieutenant etc. Steve
Thank you for your replies already. He did register for the RAFVR at a recruitment office 4days after the outbreak of war, Thursday 7th September 1939. He was then enlisted at RAF Padgate on the 15th January 1940. The numbers I have are 978368 and on his dog tags his name, REID initials, R H, OFFR, PB, the number 171758 and RAFVR. Mike
Mike, Your dad, Robert Hall Reid, was commissioned Pilot Officer 19 January 1944. It was gazetted 21 March 1944. You'll note his NCO number (978368) precedes his name as his new commissioned number follows it: Page 1321 | Supplement 36432, 17 March 1944 | London Gazette | The Gazette I see he stayed in after the war as he was promoted to Flying Officer 23 November 1949: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/38814/supplement/287/data.pdf Flight Lieutenant 13 March 1953: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/39910/supplement/3868/data.pdf Extension of service by five years 23 November 1954: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/40333/supplement/6632/data.pdf Only thing that doesn't show up is his retirement date. Regards, Dave
It would appear that R H Reid's OR service number shows him joining the RAF at Padgate in September 1939.As regards RAFVR,all direct entries to the RAF from 3 September 1939 were designated as RAFVR. The other point,where there was a delay in a recruit registering for RAF service and being called up,it was an arrangement known as a deferred entry whereby the service would call up preregistered recruits when there was an opening for such people in relation to training etc.I am not sure if the system was in use at the outbreak of war.I would think that the priority would be to mobilise as many recruits as possible. R H Reid's service into the postwar service reflects the numbers of such types who had experienced war service and were still serving in the early 1950s and later.
I am amazed at the response to my queries . To say I only joined last night I can't believe how helpful this is! Thank you. The problem is the more I find out the less I know and wish I could have asked him so much when he was alive because believe me, he loved to talk about it. The grey area for me is before he started flying. Once he started to fill in his log book it is well documented from EFTS at Sealand through SFTS in Canada, back to the UK in 58 OTU and then on to join 222 squadron until 19/03/46. After the war he stayed on as a reserve attending Refresher Courses at a Reserve Flying School. His last log book entry was flying a Chipmunk on 5th January 1954. He left disappointed that he was too old for the Korean War! 1)I am unsure whether I am getting correct information from his younger brother. ( who is still alive) Dad signed up at the Recruiting Office in Belfast in Sept but went to Padgate? as his log book indicates he enlisted on the 15/1/1940. Did he enlist in Sept 1939 or Jan 1940? Thanks Harry is this the deferred entry? 2) Thanks alieneyes, why did they have an NCO number and a separate service number? On the dog tag does the OFFR mean Officer? If so, I thought these were issued when they were kitted out (Thanks to Ken Fenton's War - so detailed) 3) I have a photo of the group for C flight 4 Squadron 3ITW August 1941 where was this Initial Training, what was the length of the course, and was it taken at the end of the course as he moved onto RAF Sealand on the 22nd August 1941. Many thanks, I am hooked, Mike
Mike, I would say that your information as to his enlistment date is correct. 978368 falls in a block of numbers: 965000 to 1149977 Sep 1939 Padgate Next batch at Padgate starts April 1941 and starts with 1475000. I'm sorry but I have no idea why the RAF had separate NCO and Officer numbers. The RCAF did the same thing, yet in the RAAF and RNZAF one kept the same number. No. 3 Initial Training Wing was at Torquay. Another member of this forum has put together an excellent page on what went on there: ITW No . 3 Initial Training Wing, Royal Air Force in the Second World War 1939-1945 - The Wartime Memories Project - Initial Training Wings No 3 Initial Training Wing Formed in Hastings and St Leonards on Sea on 18 September 1939, it moved to St James' Hotel, Victoria Parade in Torquay on 24 June 1940. It became an ITW for PNB candidates in 1942 (Pilot/Navigator/Bomb Aimer) and later also undertook the initial training of Flight Engineers. It disbanded by being redesignated No 21 ITW on 29 May 1943. It briefly reformed in Torquay on 15 September 1943 to train PNB candidates but disbanded on 1 March 1944. Out of curiosity, which SFTS did he attend in Canada? Regards, Dave
Hi Dave, Thank you once again. He arrived in Moncton, New Brunswick (via Volendam) on the 19/1/42. Ship unknown although he came home on the Queen Elizabeth. to 39 SFTS Swift Current(Sask) 27/1/42 2WS Flying Squadron, Calgary 22/6/42 " " " Shepard 1/12/42 37SFTS Calgary 8/12/42 Moncton via QE to Harrogate 22/2/43 - 17/3/43 Three queries: 1) In his log book when 222 squadron moved to RAF Woodvale he became a P/O on the 19/1/44 and also to RAF Funtington he was made up to F/O on 4/7/44. Why is it in The Gazette 5yrs later in Nov.1949? Is there a time delay before it becomes official? 2) There is a considerable amount of time from enlisting to the ITW. if that course was 2 months that left about 18months. How can I find out what he did? According to his brother he didn't come home very often. His Brother thought he did a wireless operators course because he remembers him wearing a 'sparks' badge on his uniform. He also remembers him 'doing well' by picking up a german message and translating it. The badge also appears on photos in Calgary before he had finished at the Wireless School! 3)Is there a record of those months before the ITW. Although his last log book entry was Jan 1954 I have found a letter inviting him to training in Aug/Sept 1957 so I do not know when he formally left the RAF. Regards, Mike
Hi Mike, No, no time delay. Here's his August 1944 promotion to Flying Officer: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36681/supplement/4067 I wonder if, postwar, they reduced him in rank and then in 1949 promoted him again? I don't know. It was pretty common to enlist and then be told "go home and we'll call you when we need you" Both these questions can be answered by grabbing his service records from the RAF (Clive's post #2 has the link). It's 30 quid but well worth it. If your ma is still with us she can obtain them for free. Regards, Dave
Thanks Dave, No sadly she has died but she was a different story. She was in the WAAF met my dad at RAF Hornchurch, whirlwind romance and they married in Hornchurch on 29th December 1943. In one of his sentimental letters (she kept some) he said it gave him something to live for and to come back to! One more query you might be able to help with: two colleagues were killed one was Ray Hasslyn. My dad gave an account to the Spitfire Society and received the thank you letter for the account he had given. The other is only known to me as Dave but is referred to in his log book with a crucifix for the 6th April 1945 when they were at B91Nijmegen. He is still just Dave in post war letters between my dad and other surviving colleagues. He was obviously close to them in 222 squadron. Regards, Mike
Mike, The good news is the squadron only lost five men in 1945 The closest I can see for "Dave" is a this pilot (not a Dave) lost on 4 April, 1945. If this formats right you can have a gander at all five and see if any ring a bell. Rank Name & Number Death Unit Country Cemetary / Memorial Flight Lieutenant Archibald Angus McINTYRE (123214) 1945-02-28 222 Sqdn Netherlands Ermelo (Nunspeet) New General Flying Officer William DONALD (153796) 1945-04-04 222 Sqdn Germany Reichswald Forest War Cemetery Flight Lieutenant Charles George Frederick DECK (131032) 1945-04-19 222 Sqdn United Kingdom Runnymede Memorial Warrant Officer Leslie Gordon ROWE (1198670) 1945-04-29 222 Sqdn Germany Kiel War Cemetery Flight Lieutenant Allan Pierce Beau WATSON (125848) 1945-11-28 222 Sqdn United Kingdom Sevenoaks (Greatness Park) Cem I'll come back with some info and photos from some of your dad's Canadian schools asap. Regards, Dave
Probably this man http://www.aircrewremembered.com/AlliedLossesIncidents/?q=davidson+r+m 222 Sqdn killed 6th April 1945 TD Casualty Name: Flying Officer (Pilot) Robert Martin Davidson Death Date: 6 Apr 1945 Cemetery: Jonkerbos War Cemetery Burial or Cremation Place: Nijmegen, Nijmegen Municipality, Gelderland, Netherlands Has Bio?: N URL: https://www.findagrave.com/mem...
Thank you, No, none of these names coincide with the group photos I have. Perhaps he had moved to a different squadron at this time? Any joy with the Ray Hasslyn? Already sent off for service records. Do misdemeanours occur ? Apparently there was one he would never tell me about. He just smiled and said I didn't need to know! Regards, Mike
"Dave" Davidson - its a realistic nickname especially if there were others named Robert in the sqdn and from - http://www.aircrewremembered.com/AlliedLossesIncidents/?q=1945-04-06 he is the only one from 222 sqdn and the only one that has a name that could be chenged to Dave TD Plus hes buried close to Nijmegen
Hi TD, Thanks, that's him, He is on photos. How obvious they called him Dave with a surname of Davidson. They were based at Nijmegen at the time flying Tempest V's Thanks again, Mike
Mike...this is in in response to your previous question which I was in process of answering yesterday....(day spent working retired...solving a car problem which was resolved).This morning the question is being asked regarding your father's service record which I thought you had....its the best route as Dave has said. What does your father's service record say about the Padgate event in 1939. Padgate was one of the main recruitment centres and from here and other RAF depots,recruits were inducded into the Royal Air Force where they were kitted out and also receive their service number and dog tags.The issuing of a service number in September 1939 with the Padgate reference would as I think be indicative that your father entered the service at that time. Regarding service numbers.As I see it,service numbers for RAF officers was established from 1920...regarded as gentlemen and in this category they were not directed to receive trade training..gentlemen did not "do trades"....was an element of the social structure at the time.Aircrew commissioned officers were designated as General Duties.You might see your father formally referenced as for example, F/O R H Reid (General Duties) in his records. However recruits,following aptitude tests were selected for a particular trade in one of five trade groups and received training to attain competency in their chosen or directed trade.Other direct entry recruits on taking their aptitude tests could be selected for aircrew training and be subject to further aptitude tests of a practical nature to determine their suitability for designated aircrew positions.Additionally airmen tradesmen could remuster to aircrew and aircrew could, if found satisfactory could take up training to become Pilots,Navigators or Bomb Aimers. Incidentally RAF wireless trades both ground and as aircrew were not trained in Canada so your father's presumed missing time might have involved him in wireless training in Britiain Regarding wartime rank promotions.Some were of a temporary nature and were referenced as "wartime emergency" and others were noted as being "unsubstantive",ie,if they remained in the RAF after the war,they would revert to their previous substantive rank.I recall a station commander in 1953 as a Group Captain....he led the Peenemunde raid in August 1943 as a Group Captain but his rank was not declared substantive until after the war.However I recall seeing unsubstantive ranks becoming substantive during the war. Cannot find Ray Hasslyn among the CWGC casualties but will have a look at the No 222 Squadron information I have....perhaps the spelling is at fault?
Hi Harry, Thank you, that is really helpful, it is unravelling many of the mysteries of the workings of the RAF and his RAF years. This site and its members has been so helpful. If I had known I would have applied for his service record before yesterday! I have to wait now. The wireless training in Britain seems to fit into some of the gap I am trying to fill. A point of interest having used Aircrew Remembered was when Dad was at 58 OTU in Grangemouth they had a photo of the group. The guy next to him Sgt Hollis was killed in a mid air collision with P/O N Edwards when they had just started to train on Spitfires. The account is so eloquently put in a website by his son. The site is adnedwards.co.uk Well worth the read. Attached photo of 222 squadron. Dad is back row, left of prop, the friend I was looking for 'Dave' Davidson is back row, right of prop. On Ray Hasslyn it is the only spelling I have! Regards, Mike
Mike Can you upload the document with Hasslyn's name on so that we can have a look, sometimes someone else may see things slightly differently .......................... who knows TD Can you also add the correct site address for the N Edwards document, if you look up that link it goes to a tide chart - Alistair D N Edwards Ah OK - you need to select the option top left corner 'My Father' - got it now
