17th Field Company Royal Engineers

Here's the photos I promised. This first batch Dad "in the ranks" with 93 CW Coy RE at Porton Down. The photos date from 18th May 1940 to 1st Jan 1942.

479 - What was he thinking! Date towards the latter end of the date range as he's been promoted to lance corporal
480 - Think this may be the earliest photo in the batch
481 - Dad back row 3rd from let as you look at the photo (another early photo)
482 - Dad seated middle row 3rd from the left as you look at the photo (as a lance corporal so another later photo)

Love to hear from anybody who can identify others on the photos.

Best Peter

 

After 161 OCTU (7th May 1942 to 3rd October 1942) Sandhurst and posted to the Royal West Kents between 3rd October 1942 to 12th December 1942 (when he was posted to CRE 3rd Div at "Dovercourt"

 

Hello yet again Peter,

My response to your LCI(L) 33 or LCI(L) 35 theory…

The recollections of ex-Army chaps regarding the type of Navy craft they were onboard years before are often wrong. Likewise, the specific numbers painted on those craft are often confused – complicated by the fact that craft were displaying their permanent pennant number AND their temporary Landing Table Index Number (LTIN aka serial) on the day.

As for the time they recall landing it can be out by hours.

Back to the plans…

ALL of the planned first arrivals of 66 men (ie. Offrs and other ranks) of 17 Fd Coy that apparently got ashore at H+120 were embarked on LCT’s ie Landing Craft Tank – 20 were with vehicles, the other 46 of these men were on foot.

The next planned arrivals were 53 men, from H+150 to H+195, and included at least 36 men from 2 Platoon. They were onboard LCI(L)’s ie. Landing Craft Infantry Large, &, LCT’s. ALL of these 53 men were on foot.

As for LCI(L) 33 due at H+215 ie. 1100hrs; various photographs taken just after 1100 hrs prove that it touched down on Queen Red beach – though it was due on Queen White. So just maybe LCI(L) 33?

As for LCI(L) 35 due at H+230; there are two photos in particular on the Galik website which purportedly show men landing from LCI(L) 35 soon after 1122hrs on 06June. These photos clearly show the abandoned holiday camp at the far eastern end of Queen Red beach ie. adjacent Roger Green beach. This was about as far from Queen White as you could get! Of note on the next page of the website there is a photo with the caption “LCI 35 Landing on June 9, 1944” indicating “Sword Beach!” whereas it is in fact a photo of King beach in the Gold area!

I gather you’ve put a lot of work into this puzzle – which is completely understandable. However, the reasons I currently think we can narrow down the arrival of Lt E Crush OC 2 Platoon, 17 Fd Coy RE on 06Jun44 are as follows:

1. I have no doubt that 2 Platoon 17 Fd Coy landed with, and moved inland with, 185 Bde. That’s clear in the 3 Div Op Order from 14May (which I obtained a copy of back in 2009), the orders in 17 Fd Coy War Diary from May 44 etc etc etc.

2. Indeed the bulk of 185 Bde was due to land from H+150 (with all three infantry battalions onboard LCI(L)’s) to H+250 (LCT’s carrying vehicles eg KSLI Uninversal carriers. Nb. This was one of the amendments ie. time changed from H+240 to H+250). Also onboard the LCI(L)’s carrying the infantry battalions of 185 Bde were 36 men of 17 Fd Coy - there can be little doubt that these men were from 2 Platoon.

3. Between H+150 and H+250, at H+185 ie. 1030hrs the bulk of the Staffordshire Yeomanry landed (this was another ‘tweek’ to the landing table of 10 minutes). On one of these LCT’s ie. LTIN 327 were 17 men of 17 Fd Coy on foot. These 17 men arrived in the 185 Bde ‘time slot’. They appear to be have arrived too late to be from 3 Platoon & too early to be from 1 Platoon. My conclusion is this was another 17 men from 2 Platoon.

4. From H+215 to H+230 fourteen LCI(L)’s arrived carrying men from a variety of units. NOTE! These craft were not carrying infantrymen as such, but men from the beach group, men of 71 Fd Coy RE (that were going to head to Benouville) et al. It is apparent that these men appear on the March 1944 landing table adjacent LTIN’s 579, 580, 583 & 584. Originally these men were to be ferried from LSI’s (Landing Ship Infantry) by LCT’s however at some point this was changed. Initially twelve LCI(L)’s then later fourteen LCI(L)’s were provided to carry these ~2500 men directly from England to Normandy. Notwithstanding possible amendments, there is not one man from 17 Fd Coy to be seen listed in the Landing Table for these craft.

5. Then at H+240 an LCT ie. LTIN 337 arrives on Queen White (amongst others). It was specifically carrying vehicles of the KSLI. Also onboard was a Universal Carrier of 17 Fd Coy. In this particular carrier was just one man. All the other 17 Fd Coy arrivals at the time were with other vehicles of 17 Fd Coy. None of the planned later arrivals at H+360 included a Universal Carrier. That is, the one Universal carrier onboard LTIN 337 was apparently meant to catch up with the men it was to carry. The driver of this carrier was quite probably Sapper Patterson ie. Lt Crush’s driver.

I’m putting my money (so to speak) on one of three craft. In first place I’m thinking LCI(L) LTIN 311 at H+150 on Queen White. Of interest is that the pennant number of this particular LCI(L) was 380 - was this the number that your Dad was trying to recall perhaps? This craft was probably carrying the Officer Commanding 2Bn KSLI (Lt Col Frederick Jack MAURICE 30897). As the OC the RE platoon attached to the KSLI Lt Crush was quite possibly very close by.

In second place is LCT LTIN 327 at H+185 on Queen White. This would appear to be the balance of 2 Platoon that was onboard the LCI(L)’s carrying the infantry of 185 Bde.

Runner up is LCI(L) 33 at H+215. It was due on Queen White beach during the same time ‘slot’, and, there might have been an amendment that put men from 17 Fd Coy on this craft.

Regards
Arty

 

Photos of 2 Platoon, 17 FC RE in NWE

485 - original of photo published in Monty Ironsides of the half-track blown-up in during Operation Charnwood. With Sgt Frank Faulkner front and centre (with cigarette) and Driver Patterson (on the hood)

486 (Germany 1945) - original of photo published in Monty Ironsides

487 (Unknown date and location)

490 2 members of 2 platoon 17 FC RE getting decorated Dad (MC) - 4th from the right as you look at the photo in the back row hiding - and Sapper Cushing (MM) - unknown location

If anybody can identify anybody in these phots I would love to hear from you.

Best Peter

 

WOW!!!!!!!!!! I need time to take that all in Arty, but thank you so much. Mark (Abbot) will also be interested in that as his "subject" is Frank Faulkner would have been with Dad .

Best Peter

 

Hello Peter!

It seems we are currently both online. I've just edited my last post adding that LCI(L) LTIN 311 was probably pennant number 380. Was "380" the number your Dad was trying to recall perhaps???

Signing off for today.
Regards
Arty

 

Finally, for today at least - Dad at the end of the war (back at Sandhurst as a Captain). Front row (on the floor) extreme right as you look at the photo. Note Percy Hobart 4th from the right 2nd row-up (seated). If anybody wants me to name any or all of these REs I can.

Best Peter

 

If we (i.e. you Arty) have tracked down a craft with a "3" at the start of it's number ....... I'd be pretty certain that you've "nailed it".

The old boy used to joke about getting "10 bob a day to be shot at" ....... attached is the 10 bob he looks to have got for D-day! He's signed and dated the back of the note.

I am utterly overwhelmed by what you done this afternoon Arty. Thanks!

 

Peter

The photo of PH and your dad....

please start a new thread so others who may not have an interest in 17 FC can benefit.

Such a great photo deserves a wider audience.

Sincere thanks for all you have done to assist.

Will sort WD tomorrow

 

Hello Peter,

But wait, there's more!

I’ve had a chance to take another look at the puzzle. In particular I’ve now had a look at when/where elements of 185 Bde HQ landed.

Anyway, first all are a couple of corrections to my shoddy work!

Firstly, I stated that LCI(L) 33 (of Group 13) was in due on Queen White. That was wrong. It was in fact due, and indeed landed, on Queen Red. A total of six of the fourteen LCI(L)’s of Groups 13 & 14 were due to land on Queen White – neither LCI(L) 33 or LCI(L) 35 were apparently amongst those six. The reality on the day may be that only LCI(L) 14 LTIN 413 of Group 13 landed on Queen White

Secondly, I stated “the OC the RE platoon attached to the KSLI Lt Crush…” That was a tad ridiculous of me! Lt Crush’s 2 Platoon, 17 Fd Coy was under command 185 Bde. There was of course just a section of the platoon attached to the KSLI. Though, as you know, 185 Bde was supposed to attempt to grab Caen. The KSLI with the Staffordshire Yeomanry (et al) were to be the vanguard of that effort – supposedly as a mobile column. Which brings me back to Lt Crush’s carrier – quite probably onboard LCT LTIN 337. As mentioned before, this LCT also had onboard carriers of the KSLI, and now I’ve checked, also a cluster of men and vehicles attached to 185 Bde Hq. If indeed it had been decided that Lt Crush was supposed to be up front with the KSLI he might still have stepped ashore with the OC 2 Bn KSLI. So maybe still LCI(L) LTIN 311, pennant number 380.

Regarding the landing of 185 Bde HQ itself, again the Landing Table provides lots of info. About 73 men including the Brigadier get a mention in the Landing Table. About 33 of those men arrived in dribs and drabs onboard various craft during the morning. The biggest group – of 43 men – can be seen onboard LCT LTIN 583 – the plan being to ferry them ashore at H+240. However, as mentioned in a previous post, this was a change to the Landing Table, whereby Groups 13 and 14 were later formed, so that these men arrived directly from England onboard LCI(L)’s. On 06June, these particular 43 men from 185 Bde HQ probably arrived onboard LCI(L)’s of Group 14 (though in theory they all arrived on Queen Red).

The point of the previous paragraph is that 2 Platoon HQ might have actually arrived onboard an LCI(L) with elements of 185 Bde HQ – that is, if there was an amendment to the Landing Table.

Having reviewed my slightly confused efforts, I’m now leaning towards 2 Pl HQ being onboard LCT LTIN 327 (again there's that number "3" appearing). That is, Lt Crush, quite possibly arrived at H+185 on Queen White and got ashore and inland on foot – whilst his Pl HQ carrier arrived on the beach 55 minutes later - and caught up much later!

Great photos by the way.

Regards
Arty

 

Arty you are a star!

I am still taking-in the stuff from the weekend! A quick read of your latest post may just explain why the platoon was split - Dad in St AUBIN-D’ARGUENY on the evening of 6/6/1944 and Sergeant Graham in charge of the platoon elsewhere (see earlier posts by me and Sergeant Graham’s grandson).

After the liberation of the Squadron Leader and the capture of the Germans (see earlier posts) and Sergeant Graham’s act of blowing-up the church (see earlier posts) they all RDV at the Chateau in BEUVILLE on 7/6/1944. Where they stayed till operation Charnwood. I have “then and now photos” of the Chateau which I promised Mark Abbot I’d scan in and post (I visited in c2011).

I will use your research as a spring-board for further research of my own. Have more phots to post btw ...... working today so this just a quick post to say thanks!

Best and thanks again ...... great stuff!

 

Hello Peter,

It was particularly interesting to see a mention of the "Squadron Leader" in the recollections from the 17 Fd Coy veterans. And we can be 99% sure just who that "Squadron Leader" was! It was either Flight Lieutenant Gordon Herbert Thring - a Canadian pilot flying a Stirling (glider tug) of 620 Sqn RAF, or another member of the same crew, Flying Officer Gerard Frazer McMahon (who was supposedly mistaken by the Germans as the ranking officer, because he was wearing his DFM ribbon!). The Stirling was shot down on the evening of 06June, F/L Thring apparently performing a fairly miraculous crash landing. Lt Crush would have almost certainly seen these aircraft go past that evening. Of note this event gets a mention in the War Diary of 185 Bde on 08June:

“BEUVILLE 066756 1010 Bde Hq moved to a field near BEUVILLE. Shortly after our arrival a party of Canadian airmen turned up. They had been held prisoner in the German HQ and [sic] BEUVILLE and had brought 61 of the captors captive to us..."

The only Canadian on the crew was F/L Thring, four others were Brits, whilst the Wireless Op was a Kiwi.

There has been quite a number of versions of F/L Thring's escapades written in the last 70 odd years - most are just confused fairytales!

Attached is a pic [a cropped version of IWM B5767] of Chateau Beuville looking somewhat worse for wear on 17June. The 'official' caption is entirely dodgy. The men in the pic simply identified as "Bren gunners of the 3 Division". Perhaps these men are actually from 17 Fd Coy???



Regards
Arty

 

Hello Peter,

Like you and others in this thread, I'm trying to reconcile the many discrepancies or contradictions in the accounts and plans for 17 Fd Coy RE.

I fully agree with all of Arty's remarks (although not quite with his conclusions), except perhaps my getting violent when my name is mispellt : with time I've gotten used to it and have calmed down considerably, now contenting myself with axing down a couple of trees into matches.

I am however still slightly annoyed when craft or place names are misspelt, because changing just one letter completely changes the meaning or the location (LSI vs LCI vs LCT vs LCA, BEAUVILLE vice BEUVILLE vs BIEVILLE vs BREVILLE etc. ).

Let's try the naval angle and see if it brings anything new to the discussion:

1. I consider Lt Crush's mention of Newhaven as his embarkation point as a reliable piece of information. Lt Crush must have known the difference between Newhaven and, say, Southampton or Portsmouth.
Only four landing craft flotillas (or their US equivalent, the Division) were based in Newhaven:

"I" LCT Squadron, Assault Group "S" 2

251 LCI(L) Flotilla – four craft to Group 14, five others
263 LCI(L) Flotilla – nine craft to Group 11, three others
40 LCT Flotilla – eleven craft to Group 12, one other​

Under Force "S":

US LCI(L) Division 8 – all ten craft to Groups 13 & 14​

Since Group 12 (40 LCT FLotilla, LTIN 320-330) did not embark at Newhaven but at Stokes Bay and Gosport, Lt Crush must have embarked on a LCI(L).

2. Lack of information is sometimes also information: the absence of any mention of a US-manned craft in your recollections of conversations with your father is quite interesting. I have yet to find an account by a British soldier who made the passage on board a US craft or ship which fails to mention it, apparently because of the lasting impression left by the abundance and quality of the food and beverage offered them (or lack of it, in the case of alcoholic beverages, because US ships or craft were "dry" ).
If it is confirmed that Lt Crush was on a British craft, then LTINs 411-419 & 424 are excluded.
There would remain only LTINs 420-423 (Group 14), 311-319 (Group 11 carrying the main body of 185 Br Inf Bde), plus sundry craft alloted to various other tasks and Groups.

3. Let's now get back to the Army point of view. As can be seen from the excellent summary sheet prepared by Arty, the March Landing Table lists only seven LCI(L) carrying troops from 17 Fd Coy, all part of Group 11. Since the March Landing Table appears to account for the complete strength of the 17 Fd Coy (the Coy is not mentioned in any of the troops listed for Groups 13 & 14, or in 2nd Tide or Force "L" landing tables), I see no reason why some troops would have been moved to newly allocated craft. I therefore do not believe that any 17 Fd Coy personnel was in any LCI(L) other than LTINs 311-319.

4. Since 2 Pl was under command of 185 Inf Bde while the other two pls were not, it is only logical to assert that the 17 Fd Coy troops in LTINs 311-319 belonged to 2 Pl, as has already been determined. The mention in the War Diary that "No.2 Pl under Command of 185 Br Inf Bde assaulted with infantry and fought to, and consolidated around Chateau de Beauville" further hints to its CO landing with the main fighting body of 185 Inf Bde rather than in some other craft landing vehicles or support elements of the brigade.

5. If indeed on board one of the seven LCI(L) carrying 17 Fd Coy troops, Lt Crush must have been in one of the three carrying the respective Bn HQ as well as elements of HQ 185 Inf Bde & Sigs, i.e. LTIN 311, 314 or 317. Finding exactly which one would require additional information. This could be a small detail which would help identify the landing location a bit more precisely than "between Colleville-Plage and La Brèche" (which basically means the whole of SWORD Area...), or any record of any incident taking place on board the craft, etc.

Michael

 

Arty / Michel


You guys amaze me - your knowledge and generosity is overwhelming - I am humbled!


At work this week so only brief responses via my phone whilst on a teams meeting.


Sapper Churchill records in his personal diary (written after the war) “No 2 Platoon took up position in a field on the north side of the Chateau (and Arty that’s the photo he has sent to Dad - sadly not the original) behind an 8ft wall which was about 3ft thick, and took over German slit trenches and made them comfortable because that was home home for the next month”. He continues “Bde HQ and 2 Platoon were being sniped from the village church so Sgt Graham got help from a Sherman tank and blew up the inside of the church tower”


Sapper Paterson (Dad’s carrier driver) confirms those facts and adds “Ted Crush, Frank Faulkner, Bill Edwards and Half Track Driver Hargreaves we’re also along the wall, at the far end and the remainder of the Platoon found trenches down by the field, near to the hedge. The trenches were already dug for German defence of the Chateau, so they came in handy for us”.


He adds “The two trenches of Reg (previously mentioned as “my radio mate Reg Frewin”) were in a V shape, pointing out away from the wall and to protect us from the elements we later took the waterproofing extensions off the carrier and laid them over the trenches, piling the loose soil over the top, leaving room in the centre for our entrance and the radio. It was Wednesday 7th June and I stayed there until Saturday 8th July 1944.”


I think I should share these two diaries so others can enjoy. However, I’d like them attributed to Sapper Churchill and 1876469 Sapper Paterson please.

 

Michelle

Damn! I didn’t pick up on the Newhaven hint excluding 40th LCT Flotilla! Which means I’m now leaning back to Lt Crush being onboard LTIN 311. Again, I’m thinking that KSLI/Staffies et al were supposed to be going straight for Caen in a mobile column, whilst the Norfolks and the Warwicks were going to be on either flank. It would seem reasonably logical to put the OC 2 Platoon in his carrier with the KSLI/Staffies in the centre....

However, in respect of the 17 men onboard LTIN 327, now I really want to confirm what platoon from 17 Fd Coy they belonged to!

Regards
Farty

 

Arty

Zooming-in I see all the flashes on the arms have been deleted.

Judging by my own photo when I visited this looks like where the “main gates” might have been (and we’re again when I visited).

Best Peter

 

Hello Peter,

It transpires that the main gates of Chateau Beuville were moved almost 50km, some years ago, to the Château de Vendeuvre near Lisieux.

One of these decades (if the current plague doesn't get me) I'll hopefully hop on a plane and visit the area....

Regards
Arty

 

Arty,


Just a thought which your greatest experience and knowledge might build on.


Quite possibly 2 Platoon could have been organised in Mine Clearance Teams (6 men led by an NCO) and Assault Demolition Teams (5 men led by an NCO) integrated with the KSLI. I have therefore ordered the KSLI war diary for obvious reasons.


I wondered if Page 90/91 of “Royal Engineers Battlefield Tour 1: Normandy to the Seine” might give us a clue. Whilst dealing with the disposition of 2 & 3 Platoons of 246 FC RE across 2 E York’s and 1 S Lancs, it might show how 2 Platoon 17 FC RE was disbursed within the 4 rifle companies of the KSLIs for their advance on CAEN.


Whilst 185 Brigade had 2 troops of Sherman Crabs allocated one might expect that if the need arose, dismounted the KSLIs would have needed RE support to overcome mines and pillboxes.


So should we be looking for 4 x ADTs and 4 x MCTs with the KSLIs and 2 x carriers, 1 x half track and 1 x 3 ton lorry in LCTs of groups landing 185 Brigade?


The carriers having 1 (min) and 4 (max) occupants.


The Half Track having 1 (min) and 4 (max) occupants.


The 3 ton lorry having 1 (min) and 3 (max) occupants.


Given the disposition of lieutenants Trench and Edwards with the Battalion HQs of the 2 E York’s and 1 S Lancs respectively I now think is highly likely Dad would have been with Battalion HQ of the KSLIs.

 

They’d put some gates back rather than the gates when I visited - LOL

 

It may seem odd replying to myself but readers will see why I’ve done that. I’ve just looked at my copy of that photo.

In the copy of that photo That I have (sent by Sapper Paterson To Dad in 2001 none of the arm patches have been obliterated. Which may of course suggest that he either took it or had access to the original.

Sadly it is almost impossible to make out any detail but the guy on the floor certainly looks to have the 3 Div sign on his left arm.

My copy looks to be a print-out from a computer on photo quality paper.

There’s another photo in the diary (similar quality) of a carrier with T 8703 on the side...... I wonder?

Best Peter.