England Phil - you are more than welcome - I am sure that you are aware of the convoluted arrangements of 1st army in North Africa which can lead to many mis-conceptions of what actually happened in a long narrative such as yours - which might lead to a wrong impression of what was going on. It might of some interest to point out that the original landing force of 78th Division was made up of 11th - 36th and 1st Guards bdes - whereas the make up of 6th armoured Div was that of the 26th Armoured along with the 38th (Irish) bde - until the initial force was reinforced by the 1st - 4th and 46th Divs in the march of '43 as well as the 25th Army Tank bde. The 46th was already a mixed Div with the 21st army Tank bde . The 1st army by March '43 was then of two corps which allowed a reshuffling of bdes - the 38th Inf Bde left the 6th Armoured and joined 78th Div and 1st Guards made their way into 6th armoured. This arrangement did away with the earlier Blade and Hart forces where everyone was mixed up with bits and pieces all over the place - and each getting nowhere against the newly arived Von Ahrnim's force including his 10 panzer Div - just in time for Rommel to attack the Americans at Kasserine - 6th armoured along with 21st and 25th helped clean up that mess. As you are aware - the North African campaign finished off with the attack of the 8th Argyll's from 78th Div and Gerry Chester's B sqdn of the NIH of the 25th Army Tank bde on Longstop and the subsequent attack from Medjez by the combined force of 1st Army's 4th infantry and 6th Armoured Divs alongside the 8th Army's 4th Indian and 7th Armoured with 78th Div coming in from the North West....all these divisions finally made it to Italy for the long haul into Austria where 78th - 6th armoured and 46 th were in occupation. Cheers Tom, Hopefully, and I think I have, I've captured all your points and made a few further corrections, once again thanks for your input. Phil
I would take great exception were I a member of the 17th/21st to the statement that they made a pig's ear of the battle of Fondouk, or any other battle. You had to be there to understand what happened. I am surprised to hear the regiments being referred to as Battalions. The 2nd Lothian and Border Horse were not the 2nd Battalion they were the 2nd (Regiment) Lothians and Border Horse. An armoured brigade consisted of 3 armoured regiments and 1 inf battalion (normally motorised). While understanding and applauding anyone having pride in his own regiment I find it completely distasteful when they denigrate any other regiment or corps.
Craftsmanx - you are quite entitled to feel agrieved at my term " the 17/21st made a pig's ear of the Fondouk battle ' - fact is they didn't do so well for various reasons and thus the 16/5th had to go in the next day to finish off the Battle - as I am sure that you understand in the midst of any battle - things can go drastically wrong. The situations in Battles can change very rapidly as I am sure you are well aware - and one has to help out ! my use of the term "battalions" in describing the 2nd Lothians is an attempt to clarify a situation where not too many people are aware that many EX Cavalry Units converted to Tanks as regiments and incorporated into the Royal Armoured Corps - as opposed to the Royal Tank Regiment with their Battalions. So perhaps I can be forgiven for trying to clarify matters - I am also aware that Lothian and Border Horse were unusual as having TWO regiments - the 2nd being a territorial unit therefore was broken up in late 1945 in Austria and were replaced by the 4th Queens Own Hussars and later by 2nd Gloucester Hussars as being another anomaly whereas 1st Gloucesters had been active in Africa - the 2nd never left the U.K. until 1946. I would also point out that I am well aware of the make up of an Armoured bde since the 26th Bde went out to North Africa with the 10 Rifles - then 38th Bde - then 201 Guards - then 24th Guards and finally back to the 10th Rifles with their two other BATTALIONS of Infantry. I also note that you are a junior member of this forum - but perhaps not junior in term of years as you appear to be well versed in matters miltary which sometimes denotes long service. Cheers
Im looking at the service of my uncle Ronald Bell who also died on 7th January 1943. Any idea what specific event happened on this day?
Hi Tyke and welcome to the forum are you from Barnsley by any chance? I found this on the CWGC Site In Memory of Trooper RONALD VERDUN BELL 7953318, 17th/21st Lancers, Royal Armoured Corps who died age 26 on 07 January 1943 Son of Alfred Kirby Bell and Betsy Annie Bell, of Charlston Common. Yorkshire. Remembered with honour MEDJEZ-EL-BAB MEMORIAL Click the link - CWGC :: Casualty Details Cheers Andy
Tyke - without the battle diary of the 17th 21st lancers it will be difficult to say exactly what happened on that particular day - suffice to say that he is buried at Medjez El Bab Cemetery -which doesn't of itself tell us much inasmuch as many casualties froim many areas are buried there. It is possible that he was participating in one of the 'Blade' or 'Hart's' forces attacks in the N W areas of Tunisia when he fell. This was prior to the reinforcements of the 1st - 4th - and 46th Divisions along with 25th Tank Bde arriving in North Africa. Cheers
Tyke - me again - try googling for British 6th Armoured Division - section " the run for Tunis" - it appears that around that date the 17/21st were a part of "Blade" force attcking Bou Arada.... this effort failed owing to the too strong enemy force of Von Ahrnim - and a week or so before Rommel hit the Kasserine Pass. cheers
Tyke- I have checked the battle diary for the 7th Jan. 1943. It reads: Heard from 26th Armoured Brigade. that no more Grant tanks were to be given to us. We have only 3 at present. This decision has caused disappointment to all the crews who were picked for them. No mention of action, is it possible that he was injured in an early encounter and finally succombed to his wounds on the 7th? I'll check back in the diary and see if there is any mention of wounded in the previous weeks. Big Rich
Tyke The army roll of honour for the 2nd world war has R V Bell 7953318 listed as died at sea???? very strange as the regiment had landed on the 13th Nov 1942 Rich Just cross referenced some of the other listings. A lot of the where killed listed are wrong!!
Hi, I am wondering as RoH states died At Sea, if this man died on board a ship either having already been wounded and evacuated, or as PoW ..? I know ADM199 has researched such cases. Just a thought. D
Big Rich - It is entirely possible as DBF suggests that Tpr Bell was in fact badly wounded and being avacuated to Algiers Hospital - General Hospitals would not be as far advanced into Bou Arada at that time and he might have been too far gone to save. Cheers
This may well be the case as my great uncle was wounded on the 30th May 1944 but was listed as killed on the 3rd June 1944. He died in Naples army hospital from the wounds he received. Unfortunately the war diary does not go into enough detail to list the wounded and only on certain days does it in fact list those who were killed. I do have in my possession the war diary from 1940 to 1944 so if anyone wants to know what happened on a certain day please let me know! Rich.
Big Rich .... Reinforces the point as from the dates - he was probably wounded in the Liri Valley - transported the 60 miles to Naples - and died four days later. Cheers
Hello All fficeffice" /><O:p></O:p> <O:p></O:p> I am new to this forum so hopefully I am posting in the right section, if not please excuse me, my father served in the 17th/21st lancers during the ww2 but I am unsure of the dates and areas, I intend to apply for his war record soon after reading how to do it from this thread, I found a few pictures and I wondered if anybody knew the people in the pictures or my father Sam Brazowski, don’t worry about the polish name he only spoke cockney <O:p></O:p> He was in B squadron 3<SUP>rd</SUP> troop, <O:p></O:p> <O:p></O:p>
Brazowski, Hello and Welcome from Berlin. Still waiting to get my hands on my late fathers records after suffering the loss of all his original records in the post. I am almost 100% certain that he was transfered into the 17/21st when the Reconnaissance Corps were all amalgamated into the RAC. I foolishly gave my uncle (Dads younger brother) his brass cap 17/21st badge many years ago and only have his Recce Capbadge. I wish you luck with your enquiries. Regards Tom
Braz - the times and actions of the 17th /21st Lancers is not a big secret - their history during the war - and all the other wars they were involved in ican be seen on their web site as they are now joined with 16/5th Lancers as the Queens Royal Lancers - the web site is at this link QRL Regimental Association Cheers
Hello All fficeffice" /><O:p></O:p> <O:p></O:p> I am new to this forum so hopefully I am posting in the right section, if not please excuse me, my father served in the 17th/21st lancers during the ww2 but I am unsure of the dates and areas, I intend to apply for his war record soon after reading how to do it from this thread, I found a few pictures and I wondered if anybody knew the people in the pictures or my father Sam Brazowski, don’t worry about the polish name he only spoke cockney <O:p></O:p> He was in B squadron 3<SUP>rd</SUP> troop, <O:p></O:p> <O:p></O:p> Ho do (Or should I say 'Wotcha me old china') and welcome to the forum. Great Pic, do you know which one is your Dad?
Ho do (Or should I say 'Wotcha me old china') and welcome to the forum. Great Pic, do you know which one is your Dad? thanks, it is a good picture and i am sure the other mens families would love to see it, thats why i posted it. Yes i do, he is the good looking one standing up, 3rd one from the left i have few other pictures which are good, one of them must have been when they were leaving, on the tank someone has written "last one in! First one out" and " the end of Gunga Din "
