169th Queens 2/5th btn

Fletcher_71 · Jan 29, 2017

Hi all,

I'm looking for information about my late grandfather. He served for most of the war (as far as I can tell) in the 2/5bn 169th Queens.

He was W/Sgt George Edwin Butlin 4924508 and was KIA 11th April 1945 in the area to the west of Lake Comacchio possibly during the raid on Menate / Longastrino.

I think I may have exhausted the free searches on the internet relating to most of his regiment's history in WW2 and now I'm particularly looking for details about the action taking place where and when he was killed and I'm also looking for the date when he was conscripted and attached to that battalion.

Any useful pointers for research would be gratefully accepted. Thanks!

Owen · Jan 27, 2017

Welcome to the forum.
A better way of saying it is 2/5th Queens.

They were in 169th Brigade with 2 other battalion .
169 Bde was with 2 other brigades in 56th Division.

1945 war diary at the National Archives
2/5 Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey) | The National Archives
Lee @PsyWar.Org or Andy @Drew5233 can copy the diaries for you.

Service records from MoD
Requests for personal data and service records: a detailed guide - GOV.UK

His army number 4924508 shows he originally enlisted in the South Staffs.
Army Number Block Allocations
South Staffordshire Regiment 4904001 - 4960000

Fletcher_71 · Jan 27, 2017

Thanks, Owen. I tried looking in the National Archives but found it all a bit confusing so that's now done - many thanks to you. Also looking into the MoD - great stuff.

Fletcher_71 · Jan 27, 2017

Noted the edits, thanks for that too.

Tony56 · Jan 27, 2017

George Edward Butlin is mentioned in the British Army Casualty list No 1746 Dated 2 May 1945. He is there, along with a number of others who died on or around the same date.

Central Mediterranean
Italy
Killed in Action
Queen’s Royal Regiment
6410607 Adams Pte JM, 2/6 Bn. Date of casualty 11.4.45
6479698 Black A/Cpl G, 2/5 Bn. 11.4.45
6460801 Breakspear Pte F, 2/7 Bn. 15.4.45
4924508 Butlin W/Sjt GE, 2/5 Bn. 11.4.45
6467477 Johnstone L/Sjt P, 2/5 Bn. 11.4.45
14200539 Lake Pte HH, 12.4.45
1634894 Milham Pte NA, 2/5 Bn. 14.4.45
1827913 Riley Pte A, 2/5 Bn. 11.4.45
5735270 Witheridge Pte NA. 15.4.45

Died of Wounds
2/6th Bn Queen’s Royal Regiment
5679802 Disney Pte RR, 15.4.45
3779830 Parkington Pte F, 14.4.45
5628776 Rogers Pte PR, 18.4.45
6106313 Stokes Sjt JL, MM, 16.4.45

A number of soldiers are reported as wounded on the same list, with dates around the same time.
Queen’s Royal Regiment
7 casualties
2/5th Bn Queen’s Royal Regiment
41 casualties
2/6th Bn Queen’s Royal Regiment
12 casualties
2/7th Bn Queen’s Royal Regiment
14 casualties

Fletcher_71 · Jan 27, 2017

Thanks Tony, yes I've seen that.

Any other testimony about the battalion is much appreciated.

BFBSM · Jan 27, 2017

Owen said: ↑

They were in 169th Brigade with 2 other battalion .

1945 war diary at the National Archives
2/5 Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey) | The National Archives
Lee @PsyWar.Org or Andy @Drew5233 can copy the diaries for you.
Click to expand...

If you are going to organise copies of the Battalion War Diary, you may find it helpful to also get that of the Brigade HQ: The National Archives | Search results:"WO 170/4485", I have found looking at these extremely helpful when looking at other Battalions.

I shall look through the Regimental History tomorrow to provide you with information from there, if no-one else has before.

Mark

Fletcher_71 · Jan 27, 2017

Thanks very much BFBSM will look into that.

minden1759 · Jan 27, 2017

If you establish from his Record of Service that he was in 2/5 Queens on 9 Sep 43, I can give you loads of information on what they were doing at the Salerno Landings, the drive north to Cassino, the crossing of the Garigliano and their time at Anzio up to 5 Jun 44.

Regards

Frank

Fletcher_71 · Jan 27, 2017

That would be brilliant, Frank. It's very likely he would've been there at that point.

Looking at the info here: Welcome to the Website of The Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment - the correspondence and photos that he managed to send home all match up with dates and places.

Like you say though, his service record will hopefully confirm that.

Drew5233 · Jan 27, 2017

No mention of his death specifically in the Battalion war diary but it is quite detailed. I found these pages in the appendices which may be of interest.

Fletcher_71 · Jan 28, 2017

Thanks Andy. Much appreciated. Is there an easy way to decipher the 6digit co-ordinates? i.e.. 421596?

BFBSM · Jan 29, 2017

This page will help with conversion: Notes on the "Modified British System" used on the European Theatre of Operations during the WWII

Mark

Fletcher_71 · Jan 29, 2017

Cheers Mark. I think I've got the full picture now.

BFBSM · Jan 29, 2017

Sorry this has taken me so long, but here is the section from the Regimental history, regarding the 11 April and the lead-up to it.

History of the Queen’s Royal Regiment Volume VIII, 1924 – 1948. Major R.C.G. Foster M.C., Gale & Polden, 1953

p. 465

VALLI DI COMACCHIO, MENATE AND LONGASTRINO

Apr. 4/10 Map 51
After a couple of days near Forli, the Queen’s Brigade moved on 5th April to bivouacs hidden away among the pine trees about four miles east of Ravenna. It was an ideal camping area except for the millions of mosquitos.

On 2nd April the first preliminary operation had started. The Royal Marine Commando had attacked up spit between Lake Comacchio and the sea and had met little opposition from a Turkoman division. But a depressing, although not entirely unexpected, feature of the operation had been the failure of the Fantails to cope with the deep mud of Lake Commachio. This led to modifications of the original plan. There had, in fact, been several alternative plans prepared, so that whichever appeared most likely to succeed could be put into operation. Among these was further exploitation by way of the spit, but the ﬂoods beyond and the strong enemy reactions at this point combined to rule out further progress there.

Part of the original Plan was the Fantails, and it appeared that they could negotiate the flooded land south of the Lake successfully as the going below the water was firm. It was therefore finally decided that in the early hours of the 11th a modified version of the “Impact” scheme would be carried out. The 169th Brigade wit the 2/5th and 2/6th Queen’s forward were to embark in Fantails at the Western end of the “Wedge” and strike across the floods, the 2/5th against Menate and the 2/6th against Longastrino. The 40th Royal Marine Commando were to move on foot up the narrow perimeter ditch and capture the bridge and pumping station to the north of Menate. The 2/7th Queen’s were to be left in reserve to be brought up by the second flight of Fantails.

By the evening of 7th April the 167th Brigade’s attack had been successful and the “Wedge” had been cleared, on the 9th the New Zealanders and Indians attacked under a terrific barrage and crossed the Senio. All was ready now for the 169th Brigade.

Apr. 11
The move up to the Fantails was very difficult. The only track was narrow and partially under water and showed imminent signs of collapse under the weight of the Fantails. It was desperately crowded and our columns were badly split up. It was a pitch dark night. On debussing the 2/5th had to cross a shaky 200-foot Kapok bridge which could only carry small parties at a time and had steep and difficult approaches. Later it became so greasy as to be unusable, but by that time the 2/5th were all across. The 2/6th on the left crossed slowly but more steadily by raft. All p.466 this caused delay and the embarkation was one and a half hours late, which meant that the Fantails were nose to tail in a long and very vulnerable column as the half light gave place to full daylight. It was a striking scene in the early morning light which few who were there will ever forget. Brigadier Stratton received the following message from the Divisional Commander: “God speed. May memories of the Glorious First inspire you to make today a Glorious 11th.”
On the right the Commandos met heavy ﬁre on their exposed journey up the Bund. They had over a hundred casualties, but fought stubbornly on and in the end got their objectives at the power station and the bridge. Meanwhile the 2/5th and 2/6th Queen’s embarked: it was a lengthy business getting started, as each Fantail had to make two right-angled turns over a narrow Bailey bridge before it could enter the water. It was now broad daylight, but the movement was covered by a thick smoke-screen. There was a roar of engines as they started and then a steady chugging through the quiet water. Often it became shallow and the Fantails had to lurch over a sunken bank or ridge. Every now and then the top storeys of farm buildings loomed up through the smoke, with Italians enthusiastically waving from them.

2/5th Bn.
As the 2/5th approached Menate the smoke cleared; there was little ﬁring, but an unmistakable and sinister tank could be seen on a road. The two leading companies, “A” (Major E. R. Davies) and “B” (Major V. W. Cole), struck the bank and their Fantails heaved themselves on to dry land. A number of Germans, dug in on the bank, were made prisoners and the crew of the tank, an Italian Semovinte, surrendered without ﬁring a shot.

Major E. R. Davies, commanding “A” Company, showing his customary initiative and daring, then took his headquarters Fantail another mile ahead to the bridge from which the Germans had been holding up the Commandos all the morning. He stood up in his Fantail and shouted to the enemy to surrender, which they readily did. Everywhere they were quite overawed by the size and number of the Fantails, which they believed were amphibious tanks. The surprise effect of a vast armada chugging through the water can well be imagined. Over 150 prisoners were taken by the ﬁrst two companies, and “C” (Major F. W. Firminger) and “D” (Major D. B. Smith) quickly landed on their left. The 2/5th then advanced on Menate village and, after some confused ﬁghting in the vineyards and houses, the village and bridge were captured by 1400 hrs. and ﬁrmly consolidated, touch being gained with the 2/6th on the left.

2/6th Bn.
The leading companies of the 2/6th, "D” (Major P. G. Thompson) and “C” (Major H. F. Hales), touched land within a few minutes of the 2/5th. Opposition was light. but they were immediately confronted with a wide deep ditch which the Fantails could not cross. With the help of assault boats carried on the Fantails, this obstacle was overcome and the companies pushed on through the dense smoke to their objectives. The Battle Patrol under Lieutenant L. W. Harding, protecting the left ﬂank, captured a house with a dozen prisoners.

“A" Company (Major N. 0. Quinn) and “B" (Major R. P. Mangles) then passed through. There was sniping and mortar tire, and a couple of Spandau teams in the cemetery caused a few casualties, but by early afternoon the village of Longastrino, p.467 completely flattened by our bombing, was in our hands with 150 prisoners. There were also large numbers of civilian refugees, whom the Fantails started to evacuate, but one was hit by a shell and set on fire, with severe losses to the inmates. There was general mortar tin go the area, and Major Quinn, a very experienced member of the Battalion, was amongst those wounded.

At 1800hrs. Brigadier Stratton issued new orders. The 2/5th were to carry out active patrolling, the 2/7th were to relieve the right-hand companies of the 2/6th in Longastrino, and the 2/6th were then to strike south to link up with the 167th Brigade.

The 2/7th, who had had a dull day in various concentration areas, arrived about 2000hrs. The Fantail drivers in the dark failed to ﬁnd the dry landing places and disgorged most of the Battalion in the bogs, in which they sank knee deep and even waist deep. But the relief was complete by midnight and the 2/6th, headed by “B” Company, moved south.
Click to expand...

Mark

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